Charlemagne in Berlin

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
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sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Charlemagne in Berlin

#166

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 20 Jan 2017, 15:53

MagnusStultus wrote:
Art wrote:Well, French SS in Berlin were just several hundred men, virtually a drop in the ocean. It would be strange if they receive a disproportional space in Soviet docs. And I don't remember that they ever used such words as "epic acts of valor" or like in regard to Axis soldier. However, the fact was that 8 GA/1 GTA offensive in central Berlin got stuck with serious losses which indicates a stubborn resistance from a German side. I cannot judge what was a French contribution in all that.
But as demonstrated earlier their own commanding officer claimed to have only brought 90 men in total to Berlin.

What I am claiming is that the epic acts of valor/extending the siege by two days/knocking out a fleet of T34s that their survivors claimed to have done just never happened and that the 90 men brought to Berlin may have as individuals fought bravely (although lack of German witnesses to that puts that into doubt) but they made no difference and had they made a difference the Soviets would have learned they did from capturing everything on the German side by battles end (including their commanding officer).

Considering the other evidence for how the Frenchmen of what became Charlemagne performed as soldiers (i.e. their horrible prior experience and German complaints about them as soldiers) their claims to have made any kind of significant contribution at Berlin are at best unconfirmed boasts.
Hi. ...

Why are you taking the "90" number as Gospel when quoting material from earlier posts in this thread?
Yes, I too had said that one should go by Krukenberg's version on the Charlemagne numbers in Berlin. Under normal circumstances the CO is the best person to rely on for the numbers of a unit.
However as discussed earlier on this thread, Krukenberg had compelling reasons to downplay the numbers under those special circumstances.

And the deployment history of this unit in its known offensive and defensive roles, in the distinctly assigned sectors, don't sound right for a 90 member team.

Even then, of course, 350 is an insignificant number amongst 45000 odd Wehrmacht troops in Berlin.

But no one is claiming that the Charlemagne men changed history or performed any such grandiose feats in Berlin.

For the simple reason that NO German unit performed any epoch making grandiose feats in those 10 days! The Germans were finally and totally defeated there.

The only contention is whether the Charlemagne fought bravely and with fanatical commitment till the end in their last battle.

The answer is.. Yes

Cheers
Sandeep

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Charlemagne in Berlin

#167

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 20 Jan 2017, 20:08

berlin_charlemagne.jpg
https://www.google.co.in/search?q=33+waffen+grenadier+division+der+ss+charlemagne&biw=1024&bih=662&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjA7uP3p9HRAhUJrI8KHcyDCwQQ_AUICCgB#imgrc=RxEi1avmT1aAdM%3A
Claimed to be a Charlemagne trooper in Berlin...

I somehow doubt it.


antwony
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Re: Charlemagne in Berlin

#168

Post by antwony » 20 Jan 2017, 23:03

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:Claimed to be a Charlemagne trooper in Berlin...

I somehow doubt it.
You reckon?

At least your other photo was from World War 2 and featured soldiers.

Seriously Sandeep, just stop it.

Orwell1984
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Re: Charlemagne in Berlin

#169

Post by Orwell1984 » 21 Jan 2017, 19:03

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:berlin_charlemagne.jpg

Claimed to be a Charlemagne trooper in Berlin...

I somehow doubt it.
It's not and it took me less than a minute to find out using google
http://www.panzergrenadier.net/forum/vi ... 9&start=30

It's from a photo shoot from a reenactment group called TFH.

:roll:

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Charlemagne in Berlin

#170

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 21 Jan 2017, 19:05

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5&start=30

Interesting old thread from AHF.

If one can sift through the convoluted style and the usual nit picking often in evidence in these parts, it shows the broad consensus on the Charlemagne combat numbers at the end. I will emphasise that the purpose of referring to this thread is not for enjoying the rhetoric for and against the Foreign Volunteers component of the waffen SS. Its to get some perspectives on the numbers of the Charlemagne men in Berlin.

The 350 odd fighting men of the Frankreich SS in Berlin doesn't seem far fetched to all hues of opinion. But then again new avatars of old posters may take guerrilla digs at that now...

Cheers
Sandeep

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Charlemagne in Berlin

#171

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 21 Jan 2017, 19:07

Orwell1984 wrote:
sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:berlin_charlemagne.jpg

Claimed to be a Charlemagne trooper in Berlin...

I somehow doubt it.
It's not and it took me less than a minute to find out using google
http://www.panzergrenadier.net/forum/vi ... 9&start=30

It's from a photo shoot from a reenactment group called TFH.

:roll:

Yes Orwell1984. There are many such pics doing the rounds. The idea is to show some of them from the cross section.

Cheers
Sandeep

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Charlemagne in Berlin

#172

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 22 Jan 2017, 09:11

Charlemagne in Berlin..images and footage..through the eyes of the participants :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nsmlal0nifM

"....nothing ..hopeless..a huge nothingness..."

sandeepmukherjee196
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Posts: 1524
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Re: Charlemagne in Berlin

#173

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 22 Jan 2017, 09:16

Charlemagne in Berlin..day by day..blow by blow :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0W1gjoMSNs

George Lepre
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Re: Charlemagne in Berlin

#174

Post by George Lepre » 22 Jan 2017, 20:22

Hello Sandeepmukherjee196 -

Regarding the two video links you just posted:

The first video is of little historical value. It consists largely of general statements from French SS veterans saying things like, "We fought to the end," etc. It does not help us resolve the matter of the Charlemagne's effectiveness in Berlin.

The second video, despite its silly musical accompaniment and partial use of modern film footage, may help us. At 4:34 of this second video, a map of the French SS positions in Berlin (with dates) is provided. Then, at 6:46, the claim is made that the French SS unit destroyed 62 Red Army tanks in Berlin. With this information, Red Army unit records should now be consulted to learn more about their losses during the fighting and (finally) put this question to rest.

George

sandeepmukherjee196
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Joined: 07 Aug 2014, 06:34

Re: Charlemagne in Berlin

#175

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 22 Jan 2017, 21:53

George Lepre wrote:Hello Sandeepmukherjee196 -

Regarding the two video links you just posted:

The first video is of little historical value. It consists largely of general statements from French SS veterans saying things like, "We fought to the end," etc. It does not help us resolve the matter of the Charlemagne's effectiveness in Berlin.

The second video, despite its silly musical accompaniment and partial use of modern film footage, may help us. At 4:34 of this second video, a map of the French SS positions in Berlin (with dates) is provided. Then, at 6:46, the claim is made that the French SS unit destroyed 62 Red Army tanks in Berlin. With this information, Red Army unit records should now be consulted to learn more about their losses during the fighting and (finally) put this question to rest.

George
Hi George...

The first video is meant for an overview of what the participants experienced on the subjective plane. The second video is more of a chronology of events. Art's valuable inputs would come in handy here for correlating.

Cheers
Sandeep

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Charlemagne in Berlin

#176

Post by Sid Guttridge » 27 May 2017, 10:36

Hi Guys,

Well we don't seem to have learnt much yet beyond what we already knew.

1) The Charlemagne "Division" was only ever a mixed brigade of some 8,000 men.

2) It fell apart in combat almost immediately.

3) By judicious use of peer-group pressure some 300 of the survivors were persuaded by their officers to enter Berlin near the end.

4) They were involved in fighting in the final days.

5) The survivors and some of the authors relating their stories, attribute very high numbers of knocked out tanks to some of them.

We have reasonable external sources for 1-4 above.

We have no sources beyond their own claims for 5.

Are we not where we started?

Cheers,

Sid.

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