Charlemagne in Berlin

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi sandeepmukherjee,

There is such a thing as medal inflation.

Your four Frenchmen represented about 4% of the Frenchmen in Berlin, according to your earlier post.

If the Waffen-SS as a whole was awarded Knight's Crosses on the same pro rata basis, they would have received some 35,000! In fact they got under 500, I believe.

There are two basic choices here - either the French were being recognized, after only a few days of combat, as 70 times as heroic and militarily effective as the average Waffen-SS man over six years of war (and the poor performance of the Charlemagne tends to belie this more than a little), or severe medal inflation had taken hold by the last days in Berlin.

Take your pick.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Rob - wssob2]

Hi Sandeep, you wrote:

Fyi 4 recorded and documented KCs were awarded to Fenet and his men at Berlin on 29.4.45 :
François Appolot, SS-Oberscharführer

Appolot isn't listed as a KC holder

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Kn ... pients_(A)

In fact, Robert Forbes on page 440 of his book on the French SS devotes a couple of paragraphs to the controversy surrounding the issue of KC awards given to the French SS.

Krukenberg himself did not believe the Frenchmen were given the award.

There is no surviving paperwork WRT these specific awards.

The only evidence we have is the word of Mabire, Saint Loup, and on to Richard Landwehr.

Which is why we have to take the fascist-friendly writers with a grain of salt.

[ViKinG]

Not trying to be off-topic here but has anybody here read the book SS Charlemagne by Tony le Tissier? If so what did you think of it in general? Good source or more myth propagating?

Luc

[Rob - wssob2]

Strangely enough, I was just checking out Beevor's book and he mentions Krukenberg giving out the Knight's Crosses to the French SS. So we seem to have a discrepancy in the Forbes and Beevor accounts.

I havent ready any Tony le Tissier, so I cant comment.

[ViKinG]

So you mean to say I actually own a book that someone on AHF hasn't read or owned? That's gotta be the first time haha. Usually I'm way behind everybody in my collection.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Rob,

Beevor is more of a popularizer of military history, who often uses other people's primary researches of the big picture to which he adds anecdotes dug out by himself. (I got this from one of his editors who, understandably, was nevertheless delighted by his commercial success).

Indeed, according to a Sunday Telegraph article, Beevor is rather dismissive of the dry nut-and-bolts histories without which he would have no structure upon which to hang his anecdotes.

Therefore, with Beevor, I would suggest it is usually worth digging a bit deeper into the nature of his sources. They are often derivative.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. I was clearly wrong in suggesting there were only two possible explanations for the four claimed awards - that the Frenchmen were 70 times as brave or militarily effective as other Waffen-SS men, or that there had been severe medal inflation by Berlin in late April 1945.

Your proposition that there is no hard evidence that the four awards were ever made at all trumps either!

[Cult Icon]

Wachtregiment Berlin (2 battalions strength, defending the Government quarter) had one Knight's Cross winner personally awarded by Hitler- a noncom that was credited for destroying 7 tanks. He spoke with Hitler for twenty minutes on April 26, 1945.

[Le Page]

There are a couple of post-war photos (1982 and 1987) of Fenet wearing a KC (likely a '57 decoration) at SS-related gatherings or some such. Does anyone know how he likely would have obtained the medal? Did the HIAG perhaps have some sort of conferring authority, or was it possible (then, as now) to merely purchase one?

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Le Page,

If it was his supposed original medal one dreads to think where he must have hidden it during Soviet and French captivity!

It seems very unlikely that the medal you describe from photos was the supposed original.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Le Page]

Hi Le Page,

If it was his supposed original medal one dreads to think where he must have hidden it during Soviet and French captivity!

It seems very unlikely that the medal you describe from photos was the supposed original.

Cheers,

Sid.

Fenet didn't physically receive an award in Berlin, and didn't hear anything until after the war. I was just wondering how he received the one that he's wearing in the post-war photos.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Le Page,

One wonders what authority what he claims to have heard after the war had?

At the moment there seems to be no hard evidence for any of these awards at all.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Le Page]

As I had suspected, an organization "Ordensgemeinschaft der Ritterkreuzträger des Eisernen Kreuzes" (association of KC recipients) "awarded" them.

I know one of them he [Generalmajor Karl Herzog] purchased and the other was "Awarded " to him by the OdR. The OdR did this with other Vets who had not recieved their crosses by wars end. Henri Fenet was another, I remember him telling me about it.
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/ ... stcount=73

Award date for Henri Fenet's RK should be 29 April 1945. Interesting that he told me he only first found out about the award in 1955 ! He was given an original RK by a German friend and he also purchased a 57er in the late 50's or early 60's. He was a good friend and I visited him at his home in Paris a few times were we had some long talks about that final battle of Berlin.
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/ ... tcount=221

What I meant, from my end, was that Appolot wasn't a sketchy case, while the others are: cross-checking, proofs and witness testimonies were required to put them on the holders official list.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 98#p780398

So apparently the OdR "awarded" Fenet's, based upon testimonies of others. Wilhelm Mohnke died in 2001; I wonder if OdR got any info from him regarding Fenet, Weber, and Appolot.

[Malbret17]

Le seul qui a eu la décoration à Berlin est Vaulot. Il a été tué un peu après. Only one has this Insignia. He is Vaulot who has been killed few days after.

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Hi Sandeep, you wrote:

Fyi 4 recorded and documented KCs were awarded to Fenet and his men at Berlin on 29.4.45 :
François Appolot, SS-Oberscharführer

Appolot isn't listed as a KC holder

Hi everybody..

I would like to put the record straight on Francois Appolot ...

On the night of 1st may,45, after Mohnke's kamfgruppe decamped, Krukenberg held a brief meeting at his Stadtmitte station HQ.. he praised the achievements of the French soldiers all over. Then he took off with some of the Frenchmen for the attempted breakout. The others stayed behind voluntarily. Appolot was one of those who followed him that night. By this time, all awards had already been recommended / announced. Eugene Vaulot ( and possibly Weber) had been informed (some say already handed over) about their KCs.

Francois Appolot and Henri Fenet got to know about their KCs later, in the 50s. I understand that Brigdfhr Mohnke had received the related documents from Gen Burgdorf ( Head of Personal Amt) and Obrstrmfr Wilhelm Weber had seen the document. Earning an award during battle doesnt get negated just because the prevailing chaos didnt allow physical handing over. The concerned men and units were in the midst of an apocalyptic situation that night.

As for my sources.. there are several. One of them I am giving below verbatim from an old post at AHF, involving forum staff Michael Miller and Dieter Zinke :

Re: W-Oschaf.d.SS Francois Apollot
Postby Dieter Zinke » 16 Dec 2003, 13:47

Michael Miller wrote:
Seeking any information beyond the following concerning


François Apollot
Waffen-Oberscharführer der SS

Born:

Promotions:
Waffen-Unterscharführer der SS:
Waffen-Oberscharführer der SS:

Career:
Sergeant-Chef in 28th Regiment de Forteresse: (06.1940).

Service with the Kriegsmarine, Schiffstammabteilung 28 (SStA 28): ____ - 05.1944.

Assigned as NCO to 33.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS "Charlemagne" (französische Nr. 1): 05.1944 – 05.1945.

Decorations & Awards:
~ Ritterkreuz des Eisernes Kreuzes: 29.04.1945 as Waffen-Oberscharführer der SS, Zugführer in the
Divisionskampfschule der 33.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS "Charlemagne" (französische Nr. 1)
1939 Eisernes Kreuz I. Klasse
1939 Eisernes Kreuz II. Klasse

Notes:
* According to at least one source, Apollot was killed in action by a Soviet sniper near the Reichsluftfahrtministerium building, Berlin on 2.05.1945. In fact, he was still living in France as late as 03.1997.


Merci beaucoup!

~ Mike Miller / ABR


Hi Mike,

indeed Apollot recieved the Knight Cross, presented him from Wilhelm Mohnke in the "Bunker" of the "Reichskanzlei" , so as he did with Fenet, Fey, Gieseler ( ? ), Herzig, Körner, Schäfer, Vaulot and Weber.
6 or 7 years ago I saw an information in "Der Freiwillige" concerning he was still alive, showing also a (poor) foto of this time.
Also in the newest edition of Walther-Peer Fellgiebel (Podzun Pallas, 2000)
"Die Träger des Ritterkreuzes....." Apollot is missing.
Cheers
Oberstab

As for the valiant exploits of the Charlemagne men at Berlin, its no point futilely extending a debate based on semantics and nuances / shades from distant memories of even direct participants. Decades after those cataclysmic events, first hand sources are also not likely to clearly remember if a particular individual was ( or wasnt) physically handed over a piece of tin in some candlelit subway station. Their minds at those moments were doubtless preoccupied with existential concerns.

Ciao
Sandeep

[sandeepmukherjee196]

french-ss-charlemagne-unit-berlin-1945-fight-russian-tanks.jpg (52.21 KiB) Viewed 1591 times

ref : http://www.warlordgames.com

The Charlemagne in action against Russian tanks in Berlin..Apocalypse Yesterday !