Charlemagne in Berlin

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Hi Sandeep -

Thanks for your review.

I searched the forum and found that it was none other than our own Le Page who mentioned the book being false.

Le Page - do you remember where you saw the discussion regarding the book On the Devil's Tail?

George

You are most welcome.


Ciao
Sandeep

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Hi Sandeep -

Thanks for your review.

I searched the forum and found that it was none other than our own Le Page who mentioned the book being false.

Le Page - do you remember where you saw the discussion regarding the book On the Devil's Tail?

George

Hi George...

Having recovered the book, here are some more information / observations.

The protagonist is supposed to be : Hans Josef Wagemueller. The author is : George Robert Elford. The author claims that he met Wagemueller in a bar, in the capital city of "a small Asian Nation" of which the protagonist was supposedly then a citizen. Interestingly, Wagemueller calls the Vietnamese "the real subhumans in Indo China" !

Wagemueller claimed to be an erstwhile "partisan-jaeger" with the Waffen SS in Russia. He claims to have had no racial or religious prejudice ever ! He had executed partisans under orders..period . He said that he thought that post war Germany had become a land of "Jawohl Johanns" ....

When the news of the capitulation came, his unit was supposed to have been holding a mountain pass in the Czech mountains, east of Liberec. And then his saga of super human efforts begin !

Ciao
Sandeep

[sandeepmukherjee196]

An interesting off beat episode from the varied adventures of the Charlemagne :

(From : For Europe, The French Volunteers of the Waffen-SS, Robert Forbes, page 462)

"....For W-Ustuf Martret, life at Drewin with the Construction Battalion was like a prison sentence. He had wanted to go to Berlin, but orders were orders. However, later on, if it were not for his personal intervention then the name of 'Charlemagne' could have been tainted with war crimes. This situation arose when a train from the Swedish Red Cross stopped quite unexpectedly beside the camp of the Construction Battalion and down stepped SS auxiliaries and female deportees from concentration camp Ravensbrück.

They started to look around. Martret looked on from the camp. The deportees, wearing blue and white striped suits, seemed in good health. Even so, their arrival disturbed him, for he had no wish to leave himself open to prosecution as a war criminal. He took action. Gun in hand, he led his armed guard of ten men out to confront the SS auxiliaries. He told them that there was nothing for them here and that if they did not move on he would fire. And yes, he meant it. They did not argue. The train whistled. All boarded. The train continued to the north......"


Even though, the Charlemagne would have had nothing to do with it, if the above situation turned out differently, one can imagine the kind of stuff that we would have found from posters on AHF today about the "war crimes" of the Charlemagne ! Thank God for Martret's presence of mind in those tumultuous days.


Ciao
Sandeep

[ljadw]

And, how can Forbes know this ? Was he there ?

[George Lepre]

Having recovered the book, here are some more information / observations.

The protagonist is supposed to be : Hans Josef Wagemueller. The author is : George Robert Elford. The author claims that he met Wagemueller in a bar, in the capital city of "a small Asian Nation" of which the protagonist was supposedly then a citizen. Interestingly, Wagemueller calls the Vietnamese "the real subhumans in Indo China" !

Wagemueller claimed to be an erstwhile "partisan-jaeger" with the Waffen SS in Russia. He claims to have had no racial or religious prejudice ever ! He had executed partisans under orders..period . He said that he thought that post war Germany had become a land of "Jawohl Johanns" ....

When the news of the capitulation came, his unit was supposed to have been holding a mountain pass in the Czech mountains, east of Liberec. And then his saga of super human efforts begin !

Ciao
Sandeep

Hi Sandeep -

Before I create more confusion, I should point out that we are actually discussing two different books here.

1. The book you described above was written by George Robert Elford is titled The Devil's Guard. The book has sold (and continues to sell) quite well. But it is fiction.

2. The second book, which was published not long ago, is titled On the Devil's Tail. This second book is obviously of more interest to us since it was published as non-fiction. However, the book has received criticism from those who doubt the author's claims.

The Ravensbrueck story is also fishy. When that concentration camp was evacuated in 1945, its (female) prisoners were marched off on foot, and the Red Army eventually caught up with them not far from the camp. I have not read anything indicating that inmates were moved by rail or that they made it to anywhere near Berlin, which may have been encircled by that point in time anyway.

Best regards,

George

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Having recovered the book, here are some more information / observations.

The protagonist is supposed to be : Hans Josef Wagemüller. The author is : George Robert Elford. The author claims that he met Wagemueller in a bar, in the capital city of "a small Asian Nation" of which the protagonist was supposedly then a citizen. Interestingly, Wagemueller calls the Vietnamese "the real subhumans in Indo China" !

Wagemueller claimed to be an erstwhile "partisan-jäger" with the Waffen SS in Russia. He claims to have had no racial or religious prejudice ever ! He had executed partisans under orders..period . He said that he thought that post war Germany had become a land of "Jawohl Johanns" ....

When the news of the capitulation came, his unit was supposed to have been holding a mountain pass in the Czech mountains, east of Liberec. And then his saga of super human efforts begin !

Ciao
Sandeep

Hi Sandeep -

Before I create more confusion, I should point out that we are actually discussing two different books here.

1. The book you described above as written by George Robert Elford is titled The Devil's Guard. The book has sold (and continues to sell) quite well. But it is fiction.

2. The second book, which was published not long ago, is titled On the Devil's Tail. This second book is obviously of more interest to us since it was published as non-fiction. However, the book has received criticism from those who doubt the author's claims.

The Ravensbrueck story is also fishy. When that concentration camp was evacuated in 1945, its (female) prisoners were marched off on foot, and the Red Army eventually caught up with them not far from the camp. I have not read anything indicating that inmates were moved by rail or that they made it to anywhere near Berlin, which may have been encircled by that point in time anyway.

Best regards,

George

Hi George...

Elford claims that the book is based on what was told to him by the main protagonist (name changed on his request). The narrative was recorded by a tape recorder over 18 days. But I feel that whatever the truth about the main protagonist, the narrative is rather far fetched.

The "Ravensbrück" story involves the baubataillon of the Charlemagne under Ostuf Roy. Martret was his 2 I/c. The locale is not Berlin. It's Drewin, 56 km away in Mecklenburg. Much of the information compiled by Forbes is from the books of Robert Soulat on the history of Charlemagne.


Ciao
Sandeep

[George Lepre]

Hi Sandeep -

I totally agree.

Regarding the Ravensbrück story: I am still skeptical. Every account I've read regarding KZ evacuations involved forced marches, not rail movements. By the time of the Battle of Berlin, the available trains would be used to move troops, equipment, or wounded. No?

Best regards,

George

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Hi Sandeep -

I totally agree.

Regarding the Ravensbrueck story: I am still skeptical. Every account I've read regarding KZ evacuations involved forced marches, not rail movements. By the time of the Battle of Berlin, the available trains would be used to move troops, equipment, or wounded. No?

Best regards,

George

Hi George..

You are right. It was mostly forced marches (death marches). But 500 inmates from Ravensbrück were handed over to the Red Cross. Some ethnic German inmates were simply released. The Polish prisoners had it worst.

The account I quoted mentions a red cross train.

Ciao
Sandeep

[LarsJørgensen]

Hi Sandeep -

I totally agree.

Regarding the Ravensbrueck story: I am still skeptical. Every account I've read regarding KZ evacuations involved forced marches, not rail movements. By the time of the Battle of Berlin, the available trains would be used to move troops, equipment, or wounded. No?

Best regards,

George

Hello in this knowledgable forum.

This is my first post so please allow some leeway.

Actually the account could be possible. Count Bernadotte (SWE) had negotiated an agreement with Himmler. The agreement in general was the evacuation of Danish and Norwegian KZ prisoners and Swedish persons in the German kaos. Evacuation was primarely conducted in white buses with big red Crosses on. However a few instances of train evacuation also took place (and unfortunately also by ship)
The evacuation of Ravensbrück started the 8th of April by getting app. 100 scandinavian women out (and 2 french), went straight to Padborg (Denmark)
Count Bernadotte got permission by Himmler to get all sick/ill personel out from Ravensbrück.
On the 22nd a column picked up 112 women (Ravensbrück Lübeck Padborg). They would allocate more resources in order to pick up more.
23rd April 786 women were evacuated (mainly french) Route unknown.
25th April 360 women evacuated (mainly french) Route unknown.
Above is columns under "command of Captain Arnoldson.
Also 706 french belgian and Dutch women were evacuated (in ambulances and trucks by the international Red Cross, not the white buses, but as part of the combined evacuation effort by Count Bernadotte)
last column with busses was out with lieutenant Svenson had 934 women, mainly Polish, but also French, American and British with them) arrival Padborg 26th April


However.. on the 25th of April they also departed with a train. 50 cars were filled with 3898 women. That trained arrived at Lübeck the 29th of April.
Even though Ravensbrück is placed North of Berlin, is t might be plausible to go to Berlin, before heading Northeast to Lübeck. I am fully aware that the direct route doesn't dictate that. But I have no insight what so ever, into the rail lines and how they worked between those two dates.

I'm not saying his account is true, I just give it some plausibility.


Lars


Lars

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Hi Lars. ..

Welcome to the Forum and thanks for the post. A train passing via Drewin wouldn't necessarily touch Berlin.
I am told as per Himmler's deal trains went to Switzerland too.

Cheers
Sandeep

[George Lepre]

Hi Lars -

I'm with Sandeep - your post has some interesting information.

I think the only way we can prove this story about the train would be to ask the experts. On the sites where the large concentration camps stood, there are now memorial centers (Gedenkstätten). Perhaps the historian at the Ravensbrück center knows something.

Best regards,

George

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Hi ....

Let's look at the relevant information on this from a Swedish research paper :


The White Buses
The Swedish Red Cross rescue action in Germany
during the Second World War
Research: Agneta Greayer and Sonja Sjöstrand
Editing: Martin Wikberg
Translation: Annika and Peter Hodgson
The Swedish Red Cross, Stockholm, January 2000

"........On the 8th of April around 100 Scandinavian women were collected from Ravensbrück to be
sent on to Sweden via Neuegamme.......................

On the 21st of April Bernadotte met with Himmler again to negotiate for more concessions.
Earlier the same day Felix Kersten had met with Himmler with the same intent. He had after
lengthy negotiations been promised the release of 1000 Jewish women from Ravensbrück.
Bernadotte received permission to transport all of the women from Ravensbrück.
"Immediately before Bernadotte's related meeting with Himmler, Kersten accompanied by
Norbert Masur, a member of the World Jewish Congress Swedish section, had for the first
time met with the SS-commander. Kersten hereby managing to secure Himmler's consent to
several Swedish requests, which the Foreign Ministry had assigned him to do, such as the
release of a number of named prisoners in concentration camps in Germany and Norway.
Kersten's attempt to obtain the release of interned Jews was less successful. According to
Masur's information Himmler released 1000 Jewish women from Ravensbrück after long
negotiations. Bernadotte, as mentioned above, later that day on his petition to Himmler,
managed to secure the removal of all the women from Ravensbrück.
(The Foreign Ministry's White Book "The 1945 rescue expedition to Germany")

...............................................................When Svensson's group returned the white buses had fulfilled their duties in Germany. The
front was closing in rapidly and it was clear that it would be impossible to manage the
evacuation from Ravensbrück with the transportation available. Negotiations began with the
railway authorities and with the assistance of the camp commander, Captain Suhren, they
managed to get hold of a train with room for 4000 people.
On the 25th of April the train left for Lübeck, and was estimated to arrive the next day. At the
end station everyone waited in vain. The train did not show up, not that day or the next few
days. Nobody new where the train was or what had happened. It was called "the ghost train".
On the night of 29th of April it finally arrived. From Lübeck it was brought on to Padborg station
where 3960 women could get off, and later be brought to freedom in Sweden. ....."


Cheers
Sandeep

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Hi George. .

If you notice, the Charlemagne account ends with saying that the train went off north. That adds up.

Cheers
Sandeep

[Michael Kenny]

So if a train full of camp inmates stops near a group of SS men and the don't kill everyone on it this is to be considered 'proof' they are not war criminals?

[sandeepmukherjee196]

So if a train full of camp inmates stops near a group of SS men and the don't kill everyone on it this is to be considered 'proof' they are not war criminals?

No that woudn't have been a proof in absolute terms, per se.

This group of Waffen SS men from the Charlemagne Baubataillon were not war criminals. However if the train carrying the camp inmates stopped there and the accompanying SS guards chose to dispose of those hapless folks in the vicitnity of the Charlemagne unit? Who would have believed later that the usual supects viz., the WSS men were not responsible? That would have become another instance of last minute Waffen SS perfidy.

According to the book quoted from, that is the reason why the 2 I/c shooed away the guards and their "dangerous" cargo !