A photo of Slovenian volunteer asked

[Arto O]

Hi,
Do somebody have a photo of Slovenian volunteer? Important would be that it shows a national shield in sleeve, helmet, special collar patch or something. It is for my private project: "The faces of foreign volunteers".
Thanks
Arto

[GregSingh]

Hello, which formation are you after? Slovenian Home Army, Steirischer Heimatbund, 24th SS division, all of them or something totally different?

[Arto O]

Hi GregSingh,
There are pictures in internet of Slovenian Home Army, but they are very blurry/unclear. If you have some good ones with the sleeveshield. Excellent. 24th SS division even better if the person(s) are identified as slovenians, as there were also germans in the division. In the 24th there was no national sleeve shield, Am I correct?

[GregSingh]

Yeah, they are better/worse scans from Slovensko Domobranstvo magazine. Copies are available online from Slovenian Digital Library. Just search for a magazine and you will find hundreds of photos. Perhaps you will find one you like!

Here is one, not too good, not too bad either...

Slovensko Domobranstvo

[Arto O]

Thanks a lot GregSingh, just something I was looking for.
Arto

[frcoplan]

Well, the first problem that you have is the word volunteer. It would imply that it is a volunteer for germans, which is not the case. Detailed explanation would require evolution of conflict, revolution and civil war in Slovenia since 1941, but basically what you have on a picture is a member of slovene home guard, in slovene domobranec, which literary means "defender of home". On his shoulder you can see "kranjski orel" or Kranj eagle which is a slovene symbol. Basically communists were a neglectable minority before the war. After the start of the war communists first formed antiimperialistic front (at the time of its formation, soviet union and germany were still allies, so it is not hard to figure out who were "the imperialists") with some christian socialists and Sokoli being members as well. Majority of those later entered the communist party so as you can imagine, it was more or less just a disguisse for communist party. They did not allow any other resistance, and started a widespread campaign of killing and terror specially in areas occupied by italians, which basically let them do whatever they wanted and even played along as they did not search for communists but punished whoever they got their hands on. Communists even killed people who wanted to organise resistance outside communist control. all those people were labeled as "national traitors". A lot of well respectable slovenes were killed and whole families masacred. Basically during the night communists were terrorising people and during the day italians becouse of the partisans. Eventually after a series of brutal killings and masacres people started to rebel against partisans and first village watches were formed. They together with other forces like slovene legion etc were defeated at Turjak by combined forces of partisans and italians who provided heavy weapons (italy has capitulated) with which walls of the castle could be breached. Defenders were sloughtered after surrended and this led to creation of Domobranstvo. The goal of domobranstvo was to fight against communist revolution in Slovenia and they never engaged in battle with western allies and were in fact prowestern force. Parts of slovenia were incorporated in third reich and people were mobilised into german armed forces from there, but if a person from there joined into Domobranstvo, he was not recruied into german armed forces. Democratic politicians who were behind that saw this as saveing lives of slovene men from dying on german fronts. Basically domobranci hated germans and as soon as western allies would come they would attack them. They never came and instead of this they turned members of Slovene national army back to partisans who sloughtered them in ways that normal human mind can not even imagine. Basically Domobranci were formation of democratic camp and partisans were a communist force which executed a revolution in slovenia.

I mentioned a show called Pričevalci before, i just watched it yesterday there was an ex partisan in it who made it very clear that basicall nor partisans nor domobranci did not care much about germans, they were in a struggle for after war regime of goverment, domobranci wanted return of king and democracy and partisans were fighting for communist rule.

For example, partisans in Slovenia have killed more slovene civilians during WWII, than they have killed german, italian and hungarian soldiers. Of course after war killings are not included in this as large number of civilians and german war prisioners who were taken after the surrender of germany, were killed by partisans. If you would count those slovene civilians killed by germans, italians etc. becouse of partisans deliberately provoking them to couse oppresion over civilian population (and they often did this specially in villages that were not supporting them) the number would be even higher.

WWII in Slovenia was not like it was in GB or somewhere else. Communist revolution was going on and the result was a civil war and if you were not a communist, were an important member of local community, major, politician, priest or church going person, you were far more likely to be killed (and not just shot, but normaly brutally tortured) by slovene partisan, than by german or italian. People had to defend themselfs.

what you had was basically a cooperation out of necessity not of love. Same as western allies and SU.

frcoplan

[trekker]

Well, the first problem that you have is the word volunteer. It would imply that it is a volunteer for germans, which is not the case. Detailed explanation would require evolution of conflict, revolution and civil war in Slovenia since 1941, .....

You're off the topic as Arto O has been looking for photos not words. If you're any serious I suggest you define your own topic, find facts (dates, names, figures) and start a new thread.

[frcoplan]

i do not want to start a flame war but if somebody writes a volunteer for someone who was not i think a bit of explaning can be done. They were volunters but volunteers for a fight on slovene soil against communism. If you have any proof, that any of formations of slovene democratic side, like village guards, slovene legion or domobranci ever fought outside slovenia (except in todays austria during retreat and even there only against partisans and during brekthrough through Ljublej tunnel against Germans), please present it. They never fought for germans on any front, only in slovenia and against partisans.

[frcoplan]

A few pictures from a book i bought yesterday:

Umik čez Ljubelj, maj 1945, skozi objektiv Marjana Kocmurja (Retreat across Ljubelj, May 1945, through the lens of Marjan Kocmur), Mohorjeva družbaa, Celovec, 2015

It is a book that consits of photos made by Marjan Kocmur who was among refugees escaping from communists. Among pictures are some pictures of members of Slovene national army, into which Domobranstvo was transformed, basically pictures of them in the last days before they were returned, so one of the last avaailable pictures at all.

First picture is a book itself with refugees on cover, there are also spanish and english text at the back (not as rich as slovene).

second picture are officers in front of camp of 3. regiment of Kunstelj batallion, and heavy company from Št.Vid pri Stični. Person showing his back is major Anto Mehle, a commanding officer of Gorenjski bataljon, he was the only one who resisted to leave Vetrinje, book state he was horribly tortured by partisans when he was handed to them.

Last picture is a camp of Kunstelj batallion, 5 companies 2 days before they were returned by English to partisans. Soldiers are gathered around their officers during military education.

The book itself is at the moment available in bookstores.

[frcoplan]

Those are not photographs, but drawing, perheaps they culd be helpfull in identifying uniforms anyway. Those drawings were made by Marijan Tršar in Teharje concentration/death camp, after Domobranci were returned to partisans

Pictures are from a book Spomin na težke dni Beg iz teharskega taborišča by Janez Zdešar (Memories of heavy days Escape from Teharje camp)

[trekker]

... if somebody writes a volunteer for someone who was not ...

Volunteer is »one who enters into military service voluntarily«.
source:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/volunteer

Men in military service who are not volunteers are mobilized. The point of distinction is whether they enter military service voluntarily or not. Once they enter military service they fight as ordered - volunteers and mobilized men alike. Fighting at home or abroad, fighting communists or anti-communists etc. does not constitute a volunteer. And there are not several types of volunteers. One is either mobilized or volunteer.

Members od Slovene home guard (domobranci) were not mobilized. Their political leaders wanted to have them mobilized but Germans did not allow it. Hence, they were volunteers.

Slovene home guard was established in September 1943 in Ljubljana region (Ljubljanska pokrajina) which was then occupied by Germans who substituted Italians.
It was an auxiliary police formation to German police force.
Its supreme commander was HSSPF Erwin Rösener.
It was financed by Germans.
Its members were subject to SS and Police Court.
Its members had to fight where and when they were ordered by their Slovene officers who received orders from German officers.

In short:
1) Members of Slovene home guard were volunteers simply because they were not mobilized.
2) They fought as German auxiliary police unit members on German orders regardless of how they personally viewed or publicly explained the matter (anti-communist fighters, home defenders, allies to British and Americans ...).

[frcoplan]

Well you really like to simplyfy things, but first of all, this thread is about volunteers and conscripts implying that those are volunteers for the german couse. They were not. They were also not a far right organisation, far from it. They were slovene volunteers to defend their home from communists. Nothing more, nothing less. They never engaged in military actions against western allies and they never would. they never operated outside slovene soil and although formalry they were under german command, which is logical if you receive weapins and equipment from them, their officers and command language was slovene.

Also you can not start a story in the middle and say, they were founded in 1943 and that is it. There was an evolution that led to their creation and it started with killings of innocent slovene people by communists or partisans, however do you like to put it and masacre of anticommunists at Turjak and slovene chetniki at Grčarice.

I will not polute this thread any further but if somebody is doing a project about german volunteers, domobranci are definetly not that. Yes they are volunteers for slovene anticomunist couse and that is about it. You can not compare them with tru volunteers that fought for germans on other fronts. If there was not a communist revolution in Slovenia, you would not have a single member of village watch or later homeguard in Slovenia. Take the communism away and you have 0 "volunteers".

frcoplan

[frcoplan]

I will not go through all the books, so jut a quote from a book

NEME PRIČE množični poboji nasprotnikov komunizma 1941-1946 (SILENT WITNESSES mass murders of communist opposers 1941-1946), Marko Štrovs, Nova obzorja d.o.o., Ljubljana, 2014

The section on domobranstvo is very long so just a short section out of it:

"Slovene homeguard was a totally slovene army, led by slovene officers who were comanding their forces in slovene. Home guards were led by Organizacijski štab (Organising headquaters ?) under command of lieutenant colonel Franc Krener. His aid was lieutenant colonel Miko Vizjak, chief of staff was Ernest Peterlin.

In the fall off 1944 communist spys have let the Germans know, that among home guards some officers are sympathasing with English and that they are prepearing a cupe if Anglo-Americas would land in Istria. Germans, who were already suspecting, that home guards are their reliable allies in fight against partisans and in mainteining order and peace on occupied teritory, but would cross on the side of western allies at first opportunity. So they took those charges seriously and have arrested several tens of home guard officers including Peterlin and major Križ and sent them to Dachau."

After that, germans have included german officers and units into homeguards, they were more than aware of nature of their aliance.

So, first germans send homeguards into concentration camps becouse of their prowestern nature and later those same western allies send homeguards back into communist/partisan concentration/death camps and killing fields in Slovenia.

Back to thread, there is also a description of home guard uniform

"...Uniforms were bluegreen color, by design similar to uniforms of dutch army, and were marked with slovene cocards and Kranj eagle. Germans had a lot of italiaan uniforms in magazins, but domobranci did not want to wear them..."

From the same book is another chapter that speaks about uniforms, this time about Gorenjska samozaščita (Selfdefense of Gorenjska) as domobranci were called in Gorenjska.

"Gorenjci (inhabitants of Gorenjska) started to form their domobran units in spring of 1944 when they realised that german police and military are insufficient in protecting them against murders and robbig comited by partisans. The couse for creation of first home guard unit in Škofja Loka was a sloughter of 9 local boys (in sence of young men) commited by members of VOS. A group of young men who realised they are going to be the next victims asked germans for weapons and to recognise hiome guard as legitimate form of combat against communist violence...

...The headquaters of Gorenjska samozaščita were in Kranj and was led by Slavko Krek as commanding officer, Milan Amon as a chief of police.criminal section, Alojz Perne as chief of propaganda, Janez Ovsenik as chief of intelligence service, headquater of strike company was in Stražišče pri Kranju and company was led by Franc Erpič....

Gorenjska home guard was supplied with weapons and ammunition by Germans, they were equiped with police uniformas on which home guard have attached their own symbols. They were led by slovene commanders, commanding language was slovene. Officers Marjan Fludernik, Jakob Remec, Franc Rigler, Jože Vidmar, Ivan in Nikolaj Žužek came from Ljubljana...

Gorenjska home guards arranged with teh germans, that conscripts could join Gorenjska samozaščita instead of going into german army and that those, who came on a leave from the army and did not return to their units on front, but joined home guards, shall not be treated as deserters. GĆermans agreed on return of reloacted priests. In areas, where partisans were attacking people or buildings, Germans no longer killed villagers as hostages and burned down houses...

You also have home guards from Primorska, but there is no mentioning of their uniforms.

[trekker]

Slovene homeguard was a totally slovene army, led by slovene officers who were comanding their forces in slovene. Home guards were led by Organizacijski štab (Organising headquaters ?) under command of lieutenant colonel Franc Krener. His aid was lieutenant colonel Miko Vizjak, chief of staff was Ernest Peterlin.

Slovene home guard as a military organization was led by German officers. It is true that it consisted of Slovene units commanded by Slovene officers but it is also true that Slovene officers were commanded by German officers.

This topic can be discussed at
Organization of Domobranstvo in Slovenia
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... i#p1847563

[trekker]

Also you can not start a story in the middle and say, they were founded in 1943 and that is it. There was an evolution that led to their creation and it started with killings of innocent slovene people by communists or partisans, however do you like to put it and masacre of anticommunists at Turjak and slovene chetniki at Grčarice.

It is clear from other posts that this topic is about photos of Slovene home guard. If you want to discuss MVAC start a new thread.
Both Turjak and Grčarice are topics of their own.