Bosnian Muslims fighting for the Axis?

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
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Orok
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Postby Orok » 02 Oct 2003 14:05

Deterance wrote:Hitlers's acceptance of Bosnian Muslims as "aryans" was pure politics linked to the need for manpower.


Nazi racial ideology was based on perceived linguistic and ethno-physical origines, not on religions or faith systems, actually nazi ideology was fundamentally anti-religious. So there was no obstacle in Nazi eyes that an Aryan can be at the same time a muslim. All doubts and curiosity of today are based on Christian bias, but Nazism in 1940s was not a Christian movement.

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Deterance
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Postby Deterance » 03 Oct 2003 05:30

Orok wrote:
Deterance wrote:Hitlers's acceptance of Bosnian Muslims as "aryans" was pure politics linked to the need for manpower.


Nazi racial ideology was based on perceived linguistic and ethno-physical origines, not on religions or faith systems, actually nazi ideology was fundamentally anti-religious. So there was no obstacle in Nazi eyes that an Aryan can be at the same time a muslim.


Good point in stating that Nazi racial beliefs were not religous based so "Aryan" Muslims were a possibility.

But Bosnian Muslims are Slavs and would still qualify as an inferior race in the Nazi view.

That is untill they needed manpower.

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Allen Milcic
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Postby Allen Milcic » 03 Oct 2003 18:25

The Bosnian Muslims were considered, at the time, to be "Croats of the Muslim faith". Since the Germans were willing to accept the Ustase nonsense that that "Croats are Ostrogoths, and not Slavs", then the Bosnian Muslims were accepted as "Ostrogoths of the Muslim faith". Tragicomical, really.

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Postby Jatagan » 21 Jul 2006 08:22

I hate when people use the same lame excuse... manpower.


NO!!!

Have you ever heard of the Bosnian elite troops of the Austrian Army???
That's what Himmler tried resurrecting.

Besides, Handschar started off as an SS-Freiwilligen Division, a title give to Danes,Dutch...
Himmler appreciated how Bosnia had a long tradition of fighting for the Reich.

It's in Lepre's book, altough he doesnt waste time to explain this.
Just the important aspects of Handschar.

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Postby George Lepre » 25 Jul 2006 06:37

Hi All,

Two off-topic messages have been removed. Let's keep it on topic, please.

Best,

George

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Serbian boy
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Postby Serbian boy » 29 Jul 2006 22:10

Deterance wrote:
Bosnian Muslims are simply southern Slavs who converted to varying degrees to Islam during Turkish occupation.



True,bosnian muslims are also mixed with turks.

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Postby michael mills » 30 Jul 2006 08:32

An example of the German distinction between ethnicity or "race" and religious adherence is provided by the Karaites of the Crimea.

The Karaites are a people who speak the same Turkic language as the Muslim Crimean Tartars, but practise an early form of Judaism. After the German invasion of the Soviet Union, the German authorities recognised the Karaites as being "racially" Turkic, and hence not of Jewish "blood". As such, they were given the same treatment as Crimean Tartars, and permitted to join the Crimean auxiliary units that were set up by the German occupiers.

Eventually the Crimean units were absorbed into the Waffen-SS, which meant that about 500 Karaites ended up in the SS.

When Himmler granted the Turkic formations in the Waffen-SS freedom to practise their Muslim religion, the Karaite SS-men took that as an authorisation to resume the practise of their own form of Judaism, which included many of the recognisable Jewish festivals. After much consideration, Himmler permitted the Karaites to continue practising their religion, but only in private, where the sight of men in SS uniform reciting Hebrew prayers and carrying the Torah scrolls would not cause offence to their comrades.

Thus, the Karaites were the only members of the Waffen-SS officially permitted to practise Judaism. But their religion did not matter, as they were not considered to be of Jewish "race".

The same consideration must have applied to the Bosnian Muslims. Their religion did not matter; like other South Slavic peoples allied with Germany, they were considered to be descendants of ancient Ostrogoths or other ancient "heroic" peoples who happened to speak a Slavic language.

It needs to be remembered that Himmler did not believe in the existence of a Slavic "race". He believed that speakers of Slavic languages were of mixed "racial" origin, with many of them being descended from Teutonic peoples who had lived in Eastern Europe in ancient times (eg Goths, Gepids, Langobards, Vandals, Heruli, Rugi etc), while others were descended from non-European "races" such as Huns, Avars or Mongols, or were of mixed "blood". Himmler believed that the descendants of ancient Teutons should be separated out and re-germanised, while the descendants of the non-European races, regarded as "inferior", should eventually be exiled far to the East whence they supposedly originally came.

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Postby Jatagan » 08 Aug 2006 19:28

Michael Mills,

The same consideration must have applied to the Bosnian Muslims. Their religion did not matter; like other South Slavic peoples allied with Germany, they were considered to be descendants of ancient Ostrogoths or other ancient "heroic" peoples who happened to speak a Slavic language.

I've dont alot of research on Himmler, and yes he did think the exact same thing.
I looked into one of those book of records, and in some of them it says that Bosnians are the tallest people on earth. Like the "Nordic Supermen."

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Postby Genghis » 13 Aug 2006 18:41

I would hardly consider Celts as part of the Aryan race in the idea espoused by the Nazis. Yes, the Celts are Indo Europeans, but I dont think the Irish are considered Aryan in the Nazi sense.

Yes, genetic testing from the likes of Dr Spencer Wells, Cavali Sforza, from unis such as Cambridge, Stanford etc have put out the theory that genetic evidence shows Indo Europeans to have come from Southern Russia, Ukraine..

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Postby Genghis » 13 Aug 2006 19:01

Deterance wrote:
Johnny wrote:Interesting, you seem to have found proof that the Indo Europeans actually excisted. Might I ask where you read this?[/quote} Ainu in Japan... fossils as well. They are Caucasians yet existed in Japan before arrival of Asians.


My God where do you read your history?!
Ainu were NOT Caucasian. This smacks of racist theory espoused by a American racist from 1950's. I forget his name now. The same guy who said Pre-Egyptians were also white!

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Postby Genghis » 13 Aug 2006 19:08

Deterance wrote:How come Indo European root languages did not spread north to Centeral Asia and East to Asia? Indicates Indo European people migrated only to the west....to Europe

Actually, Indo-European skeletons/mummies have been found in Xinjiang, China, along with clothing reminiscent of tartans. Tocharians?

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Serbian boy
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Postby Serbian boy » 14 Aug 2006 03:30

Migration of Indo-European peoples:

Image


My God where do you read your history?!
Ainu were NOT Caucasian. This smacks of racist theory espoused by a American racist from 1950's. I forget his name now. The same guy who said Pre-Egyptians were also white!


The Ainu tribe was for sure white,before they mixed with Asians (Japanians looks "whiter" than other Asiatic peoples).And ancient Egyptians were also white.

Image
Image


Above: Two pictures of a female mummy, on the left, taken in 2003, and on the right, taken in 1907. The mummy was one of three discovered in 1898 in a secret chamber of tomb KV35 by French archaeologist Victor Loret. The mummy, known as the "elder lady" has been identified either as Queen Hatshepsut, wife of Pharaoh Thutmosis II, who ruled Egypt after Thutmosis' death in 1520 BC; or as Queen Tiye. The older picture shows the mummy's hair to be a lot lighter than the 2003 picture.


Image

Above: The mummy of Pharaoh Seti I is the most lifelike of the great pharaohs of Egypt, and a tribute to the embalmer's art. His Nordic features remain crystal clear and because of the excellent preservation process, Seti's mummy can easily be compared with a relief of his face made in his lifetime at the Temple at Abydos. Seti was the son of the great Ramses I, and became pharaoh in 1320 BC. He reoccupied lands in Syria lost to earlier Syrian invasions, conquered Palestine and conducted campaigns against the Semitic Libyans and the Indo-European Hittites.

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Askold
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Postby Askold » 14 Aug 2006 07:04

You can also find pics of Egyptians with quite negroid fetures. I think it depends which period you are looking at and at which kingdom.

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Postby Genghis » 14 Aug 2006 16:15

Serbian boy wrote:Migration of Indo-European peoples:

Image


My God where do you read your history?!
Ainu were NOT Caucasian. This smacks of racist theory espoused by a American racist from 1950's. I forget his name now. The same guy who said Pre-Egyptians were also white!


The Ainu tribe was for sure white,before they mixed with Asians (Japanians looks "whiter" than other Asiatic peoples).And ancient Egyptians were also white.
[/quote]

Ainu are not white. They are a paleo Asian people called the Jomon. They are considered as related to the Australian aborigines. And were a part of the first wave of peoples who migrated out of Africa towards South East Asia. And then from there to N Asia such as Central Asia and then to Japan through Korea and also south to Australia from Indonesia. Evidence of such peoples have also been identified in the archaeological remains found in Tierra del fuego in South America.

Japanese are NOT "whiter" than other races. They are a mix of South East Asians and of an Asian race that crossed over to Japan from Korea (Yayoi people. Neo Asiatic people).

Japanese are therefore a mix of non-white races. They carry the M21 genetic marker, which is quite different from the European genetic marker. The preponderance of this genetic marker in the Japanese are similar to the amount found in Koreans. As such the Japanese are not "whiter" than other Asian races.
In fact many Japanese peoples migrated to their island from Korea when the Korean Baekche kingdom and Korean Gaya kingdon were invaded and destroyed by rhe Korean Koryo and Shilla kingdoms at the start of the common era.

In fact the Japanese imperial families are descended from Korean aristocrats from this period when they fled to Japan from Korea. And in 2002, Japan's emperor Akhito admitted that the Japanese imperial famliy was descended from Koreans.

Incidentally, Hungarians share similar haplogroups as found in Koreans, Japanese. Not because Koreans and Japanese have white genes, but in reverse. Hungarians share Asian haplogroups found in Koreans and Japanese.

As for the Egyptians they are not white either. They are a mix of pre-Dynastic Saharan peoples and those from the lower Nile. Egyptians carry a genetic marker that is different from European genetic markers and thus they are not white. I forget the specific genetic marker they carry, but it is completely different from the "white" gene and has been around in N Africa for at least 14,000 years.

Sources.
Journey of Man. Dr. Spencer Wells, Stamford University. 2001

The Real Eve. Dr. Steven Oppenheimer. Cambridge University.

Far East Asian Haplogroups.

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Serbian boy
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Postby Serbian boy » 14 Aug 2006 22:20

Askold wrote:You can also find pics of Egyptians with quite negroid fetures. I think it depends which period you are looking at and at which kingdom.


Blacks were mostly slaves in early Egyptian Empire.Later the race mixing started.III. Sezostris (XIX. century B.C.) banned the migration of blacks to Egypt,but he coudn't stop it.Today Egyptians are arabian peoples,Arabs occupied Egypt (Egypt was part of Byzantine) in 640 A.D.
I saw many Japanese and generally they look "whiter" for me than other Asiatic peoples.

Incidentally, Hungarians share similar haplogroups as found in Koreans, Japanese. Not because Koreans and Japanese have white genes, but in reverse. Hungarians share Asian haplogroups found in Koreans and Japanese.


I can't agree!Hungarians have simmilar haplogroups then other neighbouring nations.

Actually, Indo-European skeletons/mummies have been found in Xinjiang, China, along with clothing reminiscent of tartans. Tocharians?


Yes Tocharians were whites.

Image

Tocharian female mummy with long flaxen blond hair, perfectly preserved in ponytails. Items of weaved material, identical to Celtic cloth, definitively proved the Indo-European origins of the Tocharians.
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