French volunteers

[Orlov]

Hello,
Photos LVF and SS-Sturmbrigade Charlemagne
Bestreg Orlov

[Georges JEROME]

Redeemed?

The only thing that can be said with some certainty is that there were a some French W-SS men in Berlin at the end. However, many or most of them seem to have been influenced into going by peer group pressure judiciously exercised by their officers. (see above).

Virtually the only evidence of the their performance seems to come from the survivors themselves, who are probably not the most
detached of observers.

It must have been very grim in Berlin in late April 1945, and the French volunteers must have endured a considerable amount, but it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone, or indeed anyone, there was an effective combatant, let alone a hero.

Cheers,

Sid.

Best account upon Charlemagne remain For Europe by Forbes.
No less than 62 pages were dedicated to remnants of division in the battle of Berlin.
Certainely Charlemagne was not a great Waffen-SS division. But in the street war of Berlin. They made the job.
uSCHA Eugene Vaulot was awarded RK d EK. Krukenberg bestowed RK upon vAULOT IN THE AFTERNOON OF 29 april 1945.
Oscha François Appolot (who was a former member of the french communist party !) was too awareded RK d EK.

Georges

[Sid Guttridge]

I am not sure how significant the issue of medals was at that late stage. The Russians reportedly found a room full of assorted Iron Crosses marked 1945 when they stormed the Reichstag.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Georges JEROME]

I suggest you to read the Forbes book upon detailled operations in Berlin.
Then you will have a precise view on value of the volunteers.

Russian propaganda can't disqualifie the value of soldiers who were awarded by E.K. !

Wilhelm Mohnke last Cdt of Leibstandarte AH proposed himself Vaulot for R.K. EK II, EK I and Tank Badge destruction.
In Berlin he killed 2 russian tanks in Neukölln sector then 6 russian tanks in the area of Chancellery.

Georges

[Rob - wssob2]

Best account upon Charlemagne remain For Europe by Forbes.

I would respectfully disagree. I found Forbes' book little more than a rehash of the mythology first spun by postwar apologists such as Saint-Loup (himself a former writer for the French SS magazine) and Fenet.

Phillipe Carrard on pp.55-56 his book The French Who Fought for Hitler points out, for example, that estimates
vary widely among postwar historians as to the number of French SS troops sent to fight in the Battle of Berlin. The numbers range from 90 (from division commander Krukenberg’s 1964 memoirs, although he may have deliberately underreported the numbers to spare former French SS veterans from postwar scrutiny) to 125 (Rostaing) to 200 (Malardier), 300 (Giolitto), 350 (Le Tissier) and less reliable figure of 500 to 1,200. Carrard concludes that the exact number can never be verified and that each source’s estimate “…seems to originate less in their research than in their specialization and position in the political spectrum” (p.56)

I found it interesting that Marshall Vasili I. Chuikov makes no mention of French SS troops, much less French SS troops knocking out scores of tanks, in his 1968 book on the battle. When I cross-referenced French SS accounts of the Battle of Berlin with the account of the last tanks of the 503rd SS Tank Battalion fighting in Berlin from Will Fey's Armor Battles of the Waffen-SS 1943-45, the latter makes little to no mention of French SS troops fighting in the city center.

Consequently, I believe we have to take most account of the French SS in Berlin with a large grain of salt. I'd say we don't really know how many French SS troops fought in Berlin. I've never seen a comprehensive study that analyses how many Soviet tanks were knocked out in the city center in the fighting, or how many were possibly knocked out by the French. All postwar German accounts of the number of Russian tanks knocked out in the city center seem grossly inflated. If the 503rd SS really did knock out 100+ Soviet tanks, and the French SS also really did knock out 100+ tanks in the last days of April, then the Berlin city center would have looked like some sort of Soviet Armor version of a Los Angeles traffic jam. But based on the contemporary photos I've seen, it doesn't.

Russian propaganda can't disqualifie the value of soldiers who were awarded by E.K. !

But the awards themselves (if they were given) were themselves an act of propaganda as well

[Georges JEROME]

Philippe Carrart was not an historian but a professor of Littérature who cross testimonies of 32 former Waffen-SS in Berlin.
Russian sources are no more reliable than german ones. The french SS are estimated between 350 - 500 soldiers so very few in the defence forces in Berlin.
Ralf Tiemann in the band IV/2 history of LAH cited 2 times french SS involved in the destruction of 90 T34 and Stalin in area of Neukölln (page 436) and destruction of 60 tanks in the area of Belle-Alliance-Platz (page 439).
Of course this is not glorious for red army.

Last data : highest war awards (RK d EK and Deutsche Kreuz in Gold) are first reward for personal courage and outstanding war action before to be an act of propaganda.
Anyway we left the field of history for a battle of figures and for subjective appreciation of action of soldiers.
I will remember that these french SS were traitors because they served under a foreign uniform in war time.
This will end my contribution to this post which have few interest for the history of battle of Berlin.


Georges

[karstenE]

On post #4 there is a photo of Henri Fenet, would this be when he first enlisted at Sennhiem?

[Malbret17]

Hi,
I think it is a picture of Henri Fenet when he was in French Militia, before Senheim.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Georges,

You write, "Philippe Carrart was not an historian but a professor of Littérature who cross testimonies of 32 former Waffen-SS in Berlin." Maybe, but this does not necessarily disqualify the evidential value of the testimonies he collected.

Indeed, "Russian sources" may be "no more reliable than german ones." However, their apparently universal silence on the French presence implies that they made no distinctive impact on their opponents.

You write, "Ralf Tiemann in the band IV/2 history of LAH cited 2 times french SS involved in the destruction of 90 T34 and Stalin in area of Neukölln (page 436) and destruction of 60 tanks in the area of Belle-Alliance-Platz (page 439)." Perhaps, but if your proposition that "Russian sources are no more reliable than german ones" has validity, these statistics must be open to question themselves.

As Rob points out above it is not true that "The french SS are estimated between 350 - 500 soldiers". The real range is between 90 and 1,200, with the lower end of the spectrum being regarded as the more reliable.

I have no inherent objection to the French in Berlin being numerous, cohesive and heroic as a group, but I don't see any evidence for the proposition, individual acts of valour notwithstanding.

Sid

[karstenE]

Interesting photo I found on the internet. Suppose to be Henri Fenet.

Capture.PNG (83.69 KiB) Viewed 755 times

[Rob - wssob2]

Philippe Carrart was not an historian but a professor of Littérature who cross testimonies of 32 former Waffen-SS in Berlin.

However, he's written a quite well researched and reasoned study on the Frenchmen who served in the LVF, Assault Brigade and 33rd SS:

http://www.cambridge.org/us/academic/su ... s-outcasts

http://dartmouth.academia.edu/PhilippeCarrard

It's funny how the authors about the French SS who don't "stick to the script" so to speak provided by Mabire, Landwehr and Robert Forbes get castigated on the forum. I've defended the works of Christian de la Mazière, Carrard and Ken Estes from charges of unreliability.

Last data : highest war awards (RK d EK and Deutsche Kreuz in Gold) are first reward for personal courage and outstanding war action before to be an act of propaganda.

I dunno - I cannot help but point out that handing out Iron Crosses like candy in a candlelit subway station as the Third Reich is crashing around their heads is an act of pathos more than anything else.

[Malbret17]

Hi
Halas no, he is not Henri Fenet. This man is funny guy who has been really in LVF, perhaps in SS but not very sure. Gilbert Gilles was his name.

[Marcus]

Everyone, please remember to list the sources of the photos you post.

/Marcus

[Maxschnauzer]

Hi
Halas no, he is not Henri Fenet. This man is funny guy who has been really in LVF, perhaps in SS but not very sure. Gilbert Gilles was his name.

Two books written by Gilbert Gilles. It states that he was an Oberscharführer in Charlemagne:

http://www.histoire-memoires.com/img/collaboration/gilles-gilbert/ancien-waffen-ss-raconte.jpg

[Ustuf.33]

Hi
Halas no, he is not Henri Fenet. This man is funny guy who has been really in LVF, perhaps in SS but not very sure. Gilbert Gilles was his name.

C'est en effet Gilbert Gilles, un homme qui a inventé TOUT son parcours. Il n'a jamais été
ni dans la LVF, ni dans la division "Charlemagne", et encore moins dans une unité SS allemande, comme il le prétend.
C est ce qu'on appelle un mythomane...
Ces livres sont l'exemple type du bouquin très mal écrit et inventé de A à Z.

PS : sorry for french language, but it is difficult to explain that in english.