French volunteers

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
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Le Page
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Re: French volunteers

#256

Post by Le Page » 04 May 2014, 15:59

The French Who Fought for Hitler is intereting, if you can find one for an affordable price. It's a very short book but it's essential if one wants to have a well-balanced view of the subject.

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Loïc
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Re: French volunteers

#257

Post by Loïc » 04 May 2014, 18:14

completely wrong title... :roll: :? Traduttore, traditore
Philippe Carrard's We have fought for Hitler is about french-speaking volunteers, mixing not only French but aslo Belgian Walloons
I didn't understand were he saw "60 000 volunteers" I have never seen a such figure before him, but he is not an Historian


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Maxschnauzer
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Re: French volunteers

#258

Post by Maxschnauzer » 05 May 2014, 02:41

Ustuf.33 wrote:
Hi
Halas no, he is not Henri Fenet. This man is funny guy who has been really in LVF, perhaps in SS but not very sure. Gilbert Gilles was his name.

C'est en effet Gilbert Gilles, un homme qui a inventé TOUT son parcours. Il n'a jamais été
ni dans la LVF, ni dans la division "Charlemagne", et encore moins dans une unité SS allemande, comme il le prétend.
C est ce qu'on appelle un mythomane...
Ces livres sont l'exemple type du bouquin très mal écrit et inventé de A à Z.

PS : sorry for french language, but it is difficult to explain that in english.
I'll try to explain what you say In simple English: Gilbert Gilles was a complete fraud. 8O
Cheers,
Max

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Webdragon2013
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Re: French volunteers

#259

Post by Webdragon2013 » 05 May 2014, 14:27

Can a French or other explain something to me?
I understand that French SS units fought in German uniforms (Waffen SS was military of Germany).
But why did the "French Legion Volunteers against Bolschevism" (LVF) fight in German Heer Uniforms?

Numerous armies fought with Germany against the USSR during Barbarossa.
Finland, Hungary, Romania, etc...All on their own with their own militaries and uniforms.

So why the French LVF wear German Army uniforms?
Reason is I thought that the French state organized this unit to fight Russia? As such this was French Army unit not German Army unit no?
Or wait...Was the French Army after Armistice still disbanded and Petain could not send French troops to fight Russia?
I guess this is similar to Spanish volunteers? Since OFFICIALLY the military of Spain was not allowed by Franco to fight Russians, the Spanish volunteers had to fight WITHIN GERMAN ARMY and thus wear German uniforms. Am I correct?

Did France ever declare war on USSR?

Anyway I am asking the uniform question because If I was a German soldier I would be quite surprised, even offended, to see the enemy you just beat in 1940 all of the sudden join you to fight the Russians? Even the old Prussians from 1914-1918 (officers) must have found this quite unappealing!
= How did Hitler ever approve of this? Did German 1914/18 veterans and 1940 wehrmacht guys complain about having the French helping them?
At least with the Spaniards they were never enemy of Germans!

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Loïc
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Re: French volunteers

#260

Post by Loïc » 05 May 2014, 17:05

Simply because the LVF wasn't a French Army unit or raised by the French State but a German Army foreign unit named :
Infanterie Regiment 638
even if both France and Great Britain wanted to send troops to Finland in march 1940 Pétain's régime wasn't allied to Germany or Axis or even Anti-Comintern Pact member like the all the countries here but should be neutral and never declared war to Soviet Union and even didn't want to see the creation of a such unit (raised in the northern occupied zone under German authorities) who was beyond control for the French State, for the French officers it was forbidden to join this foreign unit.

The case isn't at all similar to the Spain's Blue Division because even if it was numbered as a german unit "250th Division" Spain wasn't at all neutral (but non-belligerent) or occupied and the Spanish "volunteers" were organized by and in the fully sovereign and independant Spanish State who considered that (Nationalist and victorious) Spain was at war against Soviet Union since 1936 and so was an unofficial belligerent with their German and Italian allies agaisnt Russia (who considered reciprocally the same against Spain, diplomatic relations were not restored before...1977)

There was a Soviet Union Embassy in Vichy, diplomatic relations were only broken in june 1941
The only French Army unit on the Eastern Front was the Normandie Niémen Armée de l'Air unit
At least with the Spaniards they were never enemy of Germans!
officially yes, but an opinion not probably shared by the Spanish Republicans exiled in France or the inhabitants of Guernica and many others like the 7 000 POW's sent by the germans to Mauthausen

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Webdragon2013
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Re: French volunteers

#261

Post by Webdragon2013 » 05 May 2014, 22:26

Interesting information, thanks.
So the Germans themselves decided to allow this.
I really wonder the logic behind it, when already the enrollment of Alsace-Lorraine Germans (French) was controversial in German high command.'
I guess it was kind of a German Foreign Legion, like the French have the French Foreign Legion.

The whole concept of occupied zone vs. Free zone is kind of muddled to me.
Its easy to think as the whole of France as Vichy France, when the two zones were clearly two different states almost.
But someone on this thread mentioned that the Germans proposed to the French that the Northern zones stays French and that Petain can establish his government in Paris. I wonder why they did not do that.

Its really not a topic for this thread, but the more you read about the Vichy state, how they forbid French officers to join the LVF and so on, how Petain never mentioned LVF or Charlemagne division, etc. The more you think that Vichy was really not a collaborationist state but legitimate French state. And it was nevertheless quickly removed by De Gaulle and before De Gaulle even arrived in France, by the communists! But this is other topic. Nevertheless the whole ambiguous situation is interesting.
Loïc wrote:
At least with the Spaniards they were never enemy of Germans!
officially yes, but an opinion not probably shared by the Spanish Republicans exiled in France or the inhabitants of Guernica and many others like the 7 000 POW's sent by the germans to Mauthausen
Political opponents are an entirely different beast.
What I mean to say is there was no official state of war between Spain & Germany, on the contrary. The more I learn about history, the more I think Spain was even more collaborationist than Vichy which seems to be the biggest pain in the ass for the Germans in WW2! :lol:

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Loïc
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Re: French volunteers

#262

Post by Loïc » 06 May 2014, 18:06

It would be difficult for him to tell something about the "Charlemagne" because it was raised when Pétain was kidnaped by the Germans, considering himself as prisoner, for him as he said few days before the French must refrain from taking part in the fightings

Pétain wrote to the LVFC in a famous letter that the volunteers have a part of the french military honour, only words, the letter is very ambigous and recalling that they didn't really serve their fatherland, actually he didn't approve a such initative but he didn't want to lose the face as head of State and the fact that some bands of collaborationnists allowed by the Germans were able to raise a such organization showed the limits of his power and sovereignety over his own country

Pétain's regime wasn't "collaborationnist" before the last months after all the territory was occupied in november 1942 losing all legitimacy especially when the Milice reached the power in this puppet regime, he did a collaboration policy, that is not the same thing to be or have a collaborationnist policy
when the two zones were clearly two different states almost
actually there were 6 zones, southern free zone, italian occupied, one annexed (Alsace-Moselle and not "Alsace-Lorraine"), one forbidden (with Lorraine Ardennes...), the northern occupied zone and Nord Pas-de-Calais rattached to Belgium & Northen France Military Command

Rob - wssob2
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Re: French volunteers

#263

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 07 May 2014, 05:27

Hi Webdragon2013,
I understand that French SS units fought in German uniforms (Waffen SS was military of Germany).
But why did the "French Legion Volunteers against Bolschevism" (LVF) fight in German Heer Uniforms?
The answer to your question begins in the summer of 1941. In Paris, in the German-occupied zone of France, various small French fascist party leaders are kicking about the cafes of Paris, trying to figure out how they can impress the German occupiers and gain more power. On June 22, Hitler invades the USSR, and this circle of collaborationist leaders, called the "Paris Front," get a brilliant idea - they will form a volunteer military legion to fight alongside the Germans against their hated enemy, Communism!

Now although the "Paris Front" has the support of German ambassador Otto Abetz (whose job it is to keep the occupied French compliant and collaborative), this proposal comes as a bit of a surprise to the German military and the SS. The Germans had no plans to enlist foreign volunteers to help with the invasion. The collaborators are proposing to create a "Legion of French Volunteers Against Bolshevism" (abbreviated LVF), and Abetz asks the German Foreign Ministry if they are willing to fund the unit. The French collaborators are making all sorts of grandious claims - that they'll raise 30,000 volunteers, that the unit will be an armored division with its own air arm, and that they have the support of Vichy, the government of unoccupied France.

Mind you, the French collaborators aren't the only Western European fascists eager to join the fight. At the same time you've got Danish, Flemish fascists, etc. wanting to go fight the Russians.

Frankly, Hitler thinks this whole volunteer legion thing is a bad idea. He's not impressed with the fighting prowess of the French and believe the BARBAROSSA campaign will be a quick victory. But he does recognize that a volunteer legion will have certain propaganda benefits and may help grease the collaborationist wheels back in occupied France, so he gives a tepid OK to the plan.

On June 30th, The Reich Foreign Office, The SS-FHA, the Foreign Section of the OKW, the German Plenipotentiary of Copenhagen and the Foreign Section of the Nazi Party met to work out the details of recruiting foreign legions. The Waffen- SS will take legions from the racially-suitable "Germanic" countries of Norway, Denmark and the Netherlands. The Army will take French and Walloon volunteer units, since according the Nazi racial doctrine that the French and Walloons are racially substandard. The Army is decidedly unenthusiastic about the whole affair.

Now Vichy France is also tepid to the idea, but offers grudging support. It in no way wants to share power with those deluded "Paris Front" nutballs up in Paris, but if the LVF performs well, hey, this could be a means for Vichy to negotiate a better deal with the Germans - maybe replace the armistice with a real peace treaty, even get co-belligerent status and thus a modicum of independence from Nazi Germany. All the LVF has to do it fight well, and Vichy can bask in its reflected glory.

But the LVF doesn't fight well. In fact, it's a disaster.

Only a thousand odd Frenchmen volunteer. They don't get tanks or an air force, but just German greatcoats and Kar98 rifles and are formed into an infantry regiment. Poorly trained, riven by political infighting, the German Army quickly recognizes that their military effectiveness is practically nil and they end up on security duty in the rear (and guarding Jewish work camps, but that fact doesn't get mentioned very often)
Numerous armies fought with Germany against the USSR during Barbarossa. Finland, Hungary, Romania, etc...All on their own with their own militaries and uniforms. So why the French LVF wear German Army uniforms?
The nations you mention were independent. The LVF came from occupied France (i.e., not independent). Thus, German uniforms.
Reason is I thought that the French state organized this unit to fight Russia? As such this was French Army unit not German Army unit no?
The disappointing results of the LVF prompted the Vichy government to attempt to form another volunteer unit called La Legion Tricolore in the summer of 1942, but Hitler's indifference and the German seizure of unoccupied France soon cancelled these efforts.

In 1943, the Waffen-SS, (now starved of combat manpower and willing to let former "substandard" ethnic groups into the mix) basically took the remnants of the LVF, combined them with better, more ideologically committed volunteers, added more training and more combined arms equipment to form the French SS Reinforced Grenadier Regiment /"Assault Brigade". This unit was in turn quickly burned up in the fighting in the Ukraine and the SS tried again with forming a French SS division in the fall of 1944.

Did France ever declare war on USSR?
Vichy France suspended diplomatic relations but I don't think it ever declared war.
Anyway I am asking the uniform question because If I was a German soldier I would be quite surprised, even offended, to see the enemy you just beat in 1940 all of the sudden join you to fight the Russians? Even the old Prussians from 1914-1918 (officers) must have found this quite unappealing!
The German Army liaison officers and the units to which the LVF was attached did not think of it very highly. The 33rd SS Division Commander did attempt to give his troops a modicum of respect, but he had his hands full with the political infighting within the division that continued even as it was forming in the winter of 1944/45. Krukenburg had to ban political posters in the barracks, and relied on the titular French division commander, Colonel Puaud, to keep the peace.

GregSingh
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Re: French volunteers

#264

Post by GregSingh » 27 Aug 2015, 04:09

Here is a report of the incident which took place during departure of I./Franz.Inf.Reg. 638 to the front in July 1942.

Insubordination of 100 Legionnaires from Ersatz unit caused unfriendly altercation between French and German commander.
Further it states that unit is not reliable and not ready for combat as long as under command of unsuitable officers.
In the conclusion it says that if the issues can't be fixed "despite all the political importance of the French Legion dissolving of both battalions shall be considered."
Akte 404 - page 26.jpg
Akte 404 - page 26
Akte 404 - page 27.jpg
Akte 404 - page 27
Source: http://www.germandocsinrussia.org/

Sid Guttridge
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Re: French volunteers

#265

Post by Sid Guttridge » 28 Aug 2015, 13:29

Hi Webdragon,

Because of its racial entry qualifications, the W-SS did not initially consider any foreign volunteers who were not Nordic - i.e, not Scandinavian.

By contrast, the more pragmatic German Army had no such racial inhibitions. As a result it was first to recruit legions of almost all other nationalities, including the French, Spanish, Estonians, Latvians, etc.

By 1942 it was apparent to Himmler that response to calls for volunteers from Scandinavia alone was not producing many recruits. Therefore he made a political grab for much of the German Army's non-Germanic foreign manpower. As a result responsibility for recruiting the French and many other European nationalities was transferred to the Waffen-SS - hence the appearance of numerous exotic W-SS divisions and units later in the war.

It is important to note that it was the Army that led the way in foreign recruitment (the Brandenburgers were recruiting in Romania even before the war) and that the W-SS were tardy by comparison.

Cheers,

Sid.

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