The Indian Volunteers in the German Army and Waffen-SS

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
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Panzermahn
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Re: Legion Freies Indien / Azad Hind

#136

Post by Panzermahn » 01 Mar 2014, 07:44

According to Bamber & Neevan's book, Leutnant Sant Singh also served with the Croatian Legion for a short while.

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Semenov
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Re: Legion Freies Indien / Azad Hind

#137

Post by Semenov » 21 Feb 2016, 20:32

new photo from my collection
950.jpg


jim023haarlem
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Re: Legion Freies Indien / Azad Hind

#138

Post by jim023haarlem » 15 May 2016, 21:47

This Indien Legion EKM i found in Zandvoort (Holland) 2 years ago.
I also reported this find to the German Deutsche Dienststelle (WASt) but they couldn't give me the name, because there archive of names is not complete, so sadly no name, but still my most loved find.


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Two unit soldiers with there EKM,s.
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The Indien Legion in Holland map.
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The coastal Widerstandsnester at Zandvoort.
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W.n 153 marked on the map with 4a the location where i found the EKM.
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Aerial RAF photograph.
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Overlay photo's.
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I. batallion unit wich was stationed in Zandvoort. from May 1943 till november 1943 if i am not mistaking.
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Dutch announcement, forbidden for Dutch girls to have love affairs with the Indian soldiers.
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Translation.
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An Dutch, Indien Legion Docu. with English subs.

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tom_deba
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Re: Legion Freies Indien / Azad Hind

#139

Post by tom_deba » 04 Jul 2016, 20:02


Ljotrulf
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Re: Let's build: Indische Freiwilligen Legion der Waffen-SS

#140

Post by Ljotrulf » 05 Jul 2016, 13:44

I have now seen a photo of Schakert in Army uniform (Indian Legion Tropical uniform) and am convinced that the W-SS portrait does indeed show Schakert sunsequent to transfewr into the W-SS. Ausmeyer was a Nachrichten Offizier of the Waffen-SS and appears to have been posted to the Indian Legion once it became a W-SS formation. I am unaware of any wartime photos of Ausmeyer in circulation and have only see the pre-war photos of him from his SS file but there is a slight resemblance to Schakert.

Ljotrulf wrote:A photograph of Franz Ausmeyer appears in the book "Hitler's Jihadis" and, although this shows him pre-war in SS-VT uniform, it is probably not him that is illustrated here. I have not seen Rolf SCHAKERT's mug shot photo from his SS-file in the Bundesarchiv and it may be that one does not exist if he was a late transfer into the Waffen-SS. However, Aislby's books have contained inaccuracies in the past so it is not a positive id as Schakert for me.

Panzermahn
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Re: Legion Freies Indien / Azad Hind

#141

Post by Panzermahn » 25 Jul 2016, 02:58

There seems to be very few photos of Indian legionnaires in SS uniform after the transfer of the Indian Legion to the Waffen SS in the fall of 1944. This is understandable since most of the German officers of the Indian Legion were aware of the Waffen SS reputation and quite a number of German officers requested to be transferred out from the Legion to avoid joining the Waffen SS.

Those German officers who remained together with their Indian legionnaires did such as Oberstleutnant Kurt Krappe never wore the Waffen SS uniform nor even used the rank SS Obersturmbahnfuehrer until the end of Germany' surrender. Even photos of German officers of the Indian Legion in SS uniform wearing the Indian Legiom insignia were rare.

Bamber & Neevan's book had about no more than a few pictures of Indian legionnaires and German officers in Waffen SS uniform:

- the famous photo of an Indian legionnaire with the Bengal Tiger Head collar patch taken in Austria 1945
- the potrait photo of SS Obersturmfuehrer Rolf Schakert of the Stabskompanie and the Indian legion armshield insignia is visible at his right arm
- a photo (from a series of photo) showing SS Oberfuehrer Heinz Bertling wearing the Indian Legion armshield while visiting the Indian Legion and hosted by Oberstleutnant Kurt Krappe.
- a portrait photo of an Indian legionnaire with the SS blank black collar patch together with the Indian legion armshield
- a photo of an Indian legionnaire wearing the field cap with the SS eagle insignia
- a portrait photo of an Indian personnel with the SD rank of Oberscharfuehrer

Arto O
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Re: Legion Freies Indien / Azad Hind

#142

Post by Arto O » 26 Jul 2016, 19:33

Hi Panzermahn,
Could you send these pics here in the forum. If not, please send me a PM. I am very interested, but I dont have access to that book.
Thanks a lot.
Arto

jim023haarlem
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Re: Legion Freies Indien / Azad Hind

#143

Post by jim023haarlem » 26 Jul 2016, 19:51

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AlifRafikKhan
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Re: Legion Freies Indien / Azad Hind

#144

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 27 Jul 2016, 08:54

Hi, can you tell me the title of this book? Looks interesting.


Arto O
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Re: Legion Freies Indien / Azad Hind

#146

Post by Arto O » 28 Jul 2016, 04:22

Thanks a lot jim23harleem for these very interesting pictures.
Arto

hoot72
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The Indian Volunteers in the German Army/Waffen SS

#147

Post by hoot72 » 20 Mar 2017, 10:01

Hi

Have had an intense discussion off line with a number of scholars who are still unsure if the Indian volunteers who were in the German army in France and Holland originally had german army insignia's on their collar tabs only to change to the SS collar tabs once the units were moved under the command of the SS high command (post D-Day invasion).

This image seems to be the only one available of a sikh german soldier with what appears to be a tottenkopf insignia on his collar tabs but it is just so hard to see. Others have argued (not on this forum) that it is actually the SS collar tabs and of course, some have suggested it is the little known/seen jumping bengar tiger collar tab instead.

Greatful for your input and comments about this please as it is a debate that has been literally raging on for the longest time and has both scholars, historians in India and overseas having literally major arguments about this. A number of the historians in question are former senior indian military officers (generals included) who insist those are SS tabs on the collars and that once the indian legion units were transferred to the Waffen SS command, the collar tabs were swapped to SS tabs.

I have it on good account that this is not true as many indian soldiers were not happy with carrying SS collar tabs, given what they were hearing losely from gossip about crimes the waffen SS had/were committing.

Thank you all.
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BLOG RUNIC COLORED SS-XIS.jpg
Last edited by hoot72 on 20 Mar 2017, 11:43, edited 1 time in total.
Whever we went, whatever we did, we quoted the songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgUhjWJVVCQ&t=199s

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army/Waffen SS

#148

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 20 Mar 2017, 11:00

Hi..

Except the Sikh soldier on top left,none of the others are from the Indian Legion..they are not even Indians.

The Indian Legion in Europe were not called the Azad Hind Fauz..That title was carried by the INA (Indian National Army) in South East Asia. The Indian Legion In Germany / Europe, raised under German auspices, was named the Free Indian Legion / Infanterie-Regiment 950 (indisches) / Legion Freies Indien and later since August 1944, Indische Freiwilligen Legion der Waffen-SS. However the literal Hindi /Urdu translation of Freies Indien being "Azad Hind".. these 2 words figured on their arm bands.

The Sikh soldier at the top is not wearing the SS runes.He is wearing the Leaping Tiger collar tab.I have never seen an Indian legionary wear SS runes.

Btw no Indian general (of the regular Indian post independence army) had any first hand knowledge of these things i.e.,the uniforms etc of the Legion in Europe. Indian officers of the British Indian army came across the INA in South / South East Asia in combat and had first hand exposure to those men. But in Europe (except in Italy towards the end) the Legion never operated in any theatre where the British Indian Army fought.

After independence, these Indian officers of the British Indian Army (by then the army of independent India) were not warm or friendly with Bose's men. The ex INA people were shunned and avoided like the plague by the independent Indian army which was largely officered by Anglophile, British trained men. The SE Asian INA at least was much more prominent in the Indian independence narrative but the hapless Legionnaires in Europe are a largely less known and neglected lot. None of the well known officers of the INA ever served in Europe.

So am curious which Indian "General" you spoke with on these matters?


indische legion.jpg
indische legion.jpg (20.47 KiB) Viewed 3013 times
indische legion.jpg
indische legion.jpg (20.47 KiB) Viewed 3013 times
Cheers
Sandeep
Attachments
Soldier of the Inf_Regt_ 950 (ind_) 'Legion Freies Indien'.JPG
Soldier of the Inf_Regt_ 950 (ind_) 'Legion Freies Indien'.JPG (62.15 KiB) Viewed 3013 times

hoot72
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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army/Waffen SS

#149

Post by hoot72 » 20 Mar 2017, 11:42

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:Hi..

Except the Sikh soldier on top left,none of the others are from the Indian Legion..they are not even Indians.

The Indian Legion in Europe were not called the Azad Hind Fauz..That title was carried by the INA (Indian National Army) in South East Asia. The Indian Legion In Germany / Europe, raised under German auspices, was named the Free Indian Legion / Infanterie-Regiment 950 (indisches) / Legion Freies Indien and later since August 1944, Indische Freiwilligen Legion der Waffen-SS. However the literal Hindi /Urdu translation of Freies Indien being "Azad Hind".. these 2 words figured on their arm bands.

The Sikh soldier at the top is not wearing the SS runes.He is wearing the Leaping Tiger collar tab.I have never seen an Indian legionary wear SS runes.

Btw no Indian general (of the regular Indian post independence army) had any first hand knowledge of these things i.e.,the uniforms etc of the Legion in Europe. Indian officers of the British Indian army came across the INA in South / South East Asia in combat and had first hand exposure to those men. But in Europe (except in Italy towards the end) the Legion never operated in any theatre where the British Indian Army fought.

After independence, these Indian officers of the British Indian Army (by then the army of independent India) were not warm or friendly with Bose's men. The ex INA people were shunned and avoided like the plague by the independent Indian army which was largely officered by Anglophile, British trained men. The SE Asian INA at least was much more prominent in the Indian independence narrative but the hapless Legionnaires in Europe are a largely less known and neglected lot. None of the well known officers of the INA ever served in Europe.

So am curious which Indian "General" you spoke with on these matters?



indische legion.jpgindische legion.jpg

Cheers
Sandeep
Hi Sandeep

Yes, I know the rest in the image are not indian. Hence why the sikh soldier is circled and I am therefore referring to that image. I opted not to cut the image as I do not know who owns the image as a whole and did not want to appear to be stealing images that perhaps belonged in someone's collection.

On the subject of the indian general, there are a number of indian historical sites on facebook (as an example) in which certain personalities who have written books on the indian wars with Pakistan have offered an opinion. One of those opinions, which I have argued against is that no indians carried the waffen SS shoulder tabs, which they have disagreed with me on.

To them, the idea that once a unit shifts under the waffen SS, uniforms`/shoulder tabs change and the unit is essentially a fully fledged SS unit in appearance and in order, which, after spending time researching, is just not true.

This was a contentious issue and they obviously have an axe to grind even today with those volunteers who served in Europe with the germans.

I am by no means the absolute expert on the issue but I have, like you, yet to see any evidence of any indians wearing SS tabs on their collar tabs.

On the subject of the leaping tiger on the collar tab, that appears to be the only image of an indian soldier or officer with that particular tab. I have not seen any historical images pre-D-Day landings of any indian units with the leaping tiger tabs on the collar.

Thanks.
Whever we went, whatever we did, we quoted the songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgUhjWJVVCQ&t=199s

hoot72
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Indian Legion/Waffen SS Units embedding with other Waffen SS Units in France 1944-1945

#150

Post by hoot72 » 21 Mar 2017, 10:45

Would be greatful if anyone could confirm that the indian foreign legion units in France and Holland in 1944 were embeded with existing German SS units before/after the D-Day invasion and if they fought actively in anti-tank combat actions and infantry missions please.

My records seem to be missing these key points at the moment.
Whever we went, whatever we did, we quoted the songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgUhjWJVVCQ&t=199s

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