Hello guys, this is my first post...
Here goes
I wish to know everything what there is to know about the Belgium SS...
For example=>
Howmuch guys where in Langemarck or Wallonien(for example !) exacly?
I don't speak German, but if you can't give me otherwise I'll try to translate it...
I can speak a bit French, so that should go fine I hope...
I can aswell speak Dutch very well(I'm from Belgium)
Picture's, names of soldiers, notes on Belgium SS'ers, books, ... are all welcome
I know this is kinda stupid to ask it...But if everyone helps me, you will learn a lot from it yourselfs...
So I hope I can have a lot of good replies here...
Steuner
The Belgium SS-Topic
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George Lerner
- Member
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- Location: Around
Hi Steuner,
Welcome om the Axis History Forum! I hope you'll have a good time here
.
To answer your question, this is some basic information about the two Belgian Waffen-SS Volunteer units, the 5.SS-Freiwilligen-Sturmbrigade ''Wallonien''(composed mainly of French speaking Wallonians from the Southern half of Belgium, and a few Spaniards and Frenchmen), and the 6.SS-Freiwilligen-Sturmbrigade ''Langemarck''(composed mainly of Dutch speaking Flems from Northern Belgium and a few Finns).
Both were raised in the summer of 1943 as brigades from the earlier units ''Wallonische Legion'' and Freiwilligen-Legion ''Flandern'', which had already fought in Russia for some time.
The Wallonien, under SS-Stubaf. Lucien Lippert, was attached to Wiking and made a succesful combat debute at a forest near Teklino. The combat strenght of the Brigade was around 2500 men, and it was fully motorised with 250 vehicles. They distinguished themselves again in the Korsun-Cherkassy Pocket, where Leon Degrelle took command. The Brigade, rebuilt to near original strenght, was then sent to Narva where it fought alongside the many other European SS Volunteer formations. SS-Ustuf Leon Gilles won the Knight's Cross there. Wallonien was sent to Breslau in October to be upgraded to a division.
It was the birth of the 28.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division ''Wallonien''. The strenght of this division was around 8000 men, after it had been reinforced with Spaniards and Frenchmen.
The new division fought in Operation Sonnenwende and until the end of the war.
The Langemarck was formed in May 1943 and consisted of the original cadres of the Flandern Legion, a battalion of Finnish Volunteers and some new Flemish Volunteers. In December 1943 the Langemarck was attached to Das Reich and fought in the Ukraine. It was encircled atr Jampol but fought itself a way out in a heavy battle together with Das Reich.
It subsequently fought at Narva (where Remi Schrijnen won the KC) and was upgraded to divisional status in October, as the 27. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division ''Langemarck''. It was in Operation Sonnenwende too and fought until its surrender in may.
Some useful links:
Wallonien:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_SS_Vol ... _Wallonien
http://orbat.com/site/sturmvogel/wallonien.html#28SS
Langemarck:
http://orbat.com/site/sturmvogel/flandern.html#27SS
http://axis101.bizland.com/FlemishFeldpost.htm
Cheers
,
Nick
Welcome om the Axis History Forum! I hope you'll have a good time here
.To answer your question, this is some basic information about the two Belgian Waffen-SS Volunteer units, the 5.SS-Freiwilligen-Sturmbrigade ''Wallonien''(composed mainly of French speaking Wallonians from the Southern half of Belgium, and a few Spaniards and Frenchmen), and the 6.SS-Freiwilligen-Sturmbrigade ''Langemarck''(composed mainly of Dutch speaking Flems from Northern Belgium and a few Finns).
Both were raised in the summer of 1943 as brigades from the earlier units ''Wallonische Legion'' and Freiwilligen-Legion ''Flandern'', which had already fought in Russia for some time.
The Wallonien, under SS-Stubaf. Lucien Lippert, was attached to Wiking and made a succesful combat debute at a forest near Teklino. The combat strenght of the Brigade was around 2500 men, and it was fully motorised with 250 vehicles. They distinguished themselves again in the Korsun-Cherkassy Pocket, where Leon Degrelle took command. The Brigade, rebuilt to near original strenght, was then sent to Narva where it fought alongside the many other European SS Volunteer formations. SS-Ustuf Leon Gilles won the Knight's Cross there. Wallonien was sent to Breslau in October to be upgraded to a division.
It was the birth of the 28.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division ''Wallonien''. The strenght of this division was around 8000 men, after it had been reinforced with Spaniards and Frenchmen.
The new division fought in Operation Sonnenwende and until the end of the war.
The Langemarck was formed in May 1943 and consisted of the original cadres of the Flandern Legion, a battalion of Finnish Volunteers and some new Flemish Volunteers. In December 1943 the Langemarck was attached to Das Reich and fought in the Ukraine. It was encircled atr Jampol but fought itself a way out in a heavy battle together with Das Reich.
It subsequently fought at Narva (where Remi Schrijnen won the KC) and was upgraded to divisional status in October, as the 27. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division ''Langemarck''. It was in Operation Sonnenwende too and fought until its surrender in may.
Some useful links:
Wallonien:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_SS_Vol ... _Wallonien
http://orbat.com/site/sturmvogel/wallonien.html#28SS
Langemarck:
http://orbat.com/site/sturmvogel/flandern.html#27SS
http://axis101.bizland.com/FlemishFeldpost.htm
Cheers
,Nick
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Maigewitter
- Member
- Posts: 635
- Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 23:53
- Location: West Germany
Heres a pic of belgian SS-volunteers:
Source: Die SS by Gordon Williamson, sorry dont have a scanner
I hope its correct that they are belgian..
and another pic:
Léon Degrelle and some survivors of the SS-Sturmbrigade Wallonien after the pocket of Tscherkassy:
Recruiting poster:
Source: Die SS by Gordon Williamson, sorry dont have a scanner
I hope its correct that they are belgian..
and another pic:
Léon Degrelle and some survivors of the SS-Sturmbrigade Wallonien after the pocket of Tscherkassy:
Recruiting poster:
Last edited by Maigewitter on 15 Mar 2006, 18:47, edited 2 times in total.
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Maigewitter
- Member
- Posts: 635
- Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 23:53
- Location: West Germany
Yes it give informations about the entire Waffen-SS.
Okey some mroe pics from the book:
Translation from the book:
A pretty successful Belgian in the rows of the Waffen-SS. The soldier on the left side is SS-Sturmmann Remy Schrijnen, who destroyed 7 russian tanks on his own, although he got wounded. Here hes accompanied by SS-Untersturmführer Koslovsky for the bestowal of the Ritterkreuz. Schrijnen served in the 27. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadierdivsion Langemark.
A young flamish soldier of the Freiwilligenlegion Flandern:
Soldiers of the Freiwilligenlegion Flandern during the inspection by SS-Sturmbannführer Conrad Schellong, their commander:
So i hope i could help you!
Okey some mroe pics from the book:
Translation from the book:
A pretty successful Belgian in the rows of the Waffen-SS. The soldier on the left side is SS-Sturmmann Remy Schrijnen, who destroyed 7 russian tanks on his own, although he got wounded. Here hes accompanied by SS-Untersturmführer Koslovsky for the bestowal of the Ritterkreuz. Schrijnen served in the 27. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadierdivsion Langemark.
A young flamish soldier of the Freiwilligenlegion Flandern:
Soldiers of the Freiwilligenlegion Flandern during the inspection by SS-Sturmbannführer Conrad Schellong, their commander:
So i hope i could help you!
If you really wont to know something about the Flemish <Oostfronters> read <Vlamingen aan het Oostfront> by Alfons Thoelen part I about the <Vlaamsch Legioen> and part II about the <Langemarck>.
But if you wont to dig deeper in the history of the Flemish movement, I would advice the 8 parts of <Vlaanderen in Uniform> by Jan Vincx.
But if you wont to dig deeper in the history of the Flemish movement, I would advice the 8 parts of <Vlaanderen in Uniform> by Jan Vincx.
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Marc Rikmenspoel
- Member
- Posts: 1131
- Joined: 12 Sep 2004, 07:44
- Location: Denver, Colorado USA
I don't know where this idea that Finns were in the Brigade Langemarck originated, but no matter how many books copy from each other and report it, it has no basis in fact. I can't guarantee that there was not a single Finn in the unit (after all, Jukuo Itälä got around a bit, serving as an advisor to several units), but any Finns present would have been very much an exception.
Further, note that only small battlegroups each from Langemarck and Wallonien fought in Estonia. Each was smaller than a battalion, the Flemings fought on the Tannenberg Line, while the Walloons were part of the detached forces fighting further south near Tartu/Dorpat.
Later, the divisions were formed, and while it was physically possible to assemble 8000 Walloons (including a few hundred Spaniards and Frenchmen), many of these men were overage refugees in the 50 year old range, or were labor service men with no desire to be soldiers. So once this was all shaken out, about 4500 men remained as the 28. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier Division, and many of these were sent away to specialist training sites, so that only perhaps 2500-3000 men arrived at the front in Pomerania in February 1945. The others returned to the unit along the Oder in early April 1945, but they were enough to only raise the overall strength by that point to perhaps 2000-2500 men, and only around 700 formed the main combat portion.
The 27. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier Division was potentially in better shape, as around 15,000 Flemings could be assembled, but a great many lacked any military training. Others, as with the Walloons, didn't want to be soldiers in a lost cause. The initial battlegroup that went into combat in Pomerania in February 1945 numbered only 2300 men, and was reduced to only 200 fit for duty. Many others finished training (in this case, some were at specialist schools as with the Walloons, but many were simply undergoing basic infantry training) and arrived at the Oder front in late March and early April 1945. This brought the division up to a strength of 4100 men. Another 2000 or so arrived in the next couple of weeks, leading up to the Soviet Berlin offensive of April 16, so that the division finally had about 6000 men, with another perhaps 6000 still in training (and perhaps 3000 who refused to serve).
The Walloons never truly approached divisional strength, and their Chief of Staff Frans Hellebaut sought to have the unit officially recognized once again as a brigade. With the Flemings, further time and improved circumstances could have allowed a full division of 12-13000 men to form, so the Langemarck Division shouldn't be treated in the "joke" manner it often is presented in in post-war publications.
I write in more detail about all of this in my Waffen-SS : Encyclopedia (2nd Edition, Aberjona Press, 2004). For material specifically about the Flemings in English seek out Allen Brandt's The Last Knight of Flanders (Schiffer, 1998). And in Flemish/Dutch, there's a huge wealth of information in Jan Vincx's Vlaanderen in Uniform (Etnika, 1980-85), which Stormman listed. I haven't seen Toelen's books, but I've read many positive comments, including Stormman's. And for the Walloons, check out various works by Eddy De Bruyne in French. I helped Eddy assemble an English language photo and text summary of his research as the book For Rex and For Belgium (Helion, 2004). All of these will help the interested reader learn more about Belgians in the Waffen-SS.
Further, note that only small battlegroups each from Langemarck and Wallonien fought in Estonia. Each was smaller than a battalion, the Flemings fought on the Tannenberg Line, while the Walloons were part of the detached forces fighting further south near Tartu/Dorpat.
Later, the divisions were formed, and while it was physically possible to assemble 8000 Walloons (including a few hundred Spaniards and Frenchmen), many of these men were overage refugees in the 50 year old range, or were labor service men with no desire to be soldiers. So once this was all shaken out, about 4500 men remained as the 28. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier Division, and many of these were sent away to specialist training sites, so that only perhaps 2500-3000 men arrived at the front in Pomerania in February 1945. The others returned to the unit along the Oder in early April 1945, but they were enough to only raise the overall strength by that point to perhaps 2000-2500 men, and only around 700 formed the main combat portion.
The 27. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier Division was potentially in better shape, as around 15,000 Flemings could be assembled, but a great many lacked any military training. Others, as with the Walloons, didn't want to be soldiers in a lost cause. The initial battlegroup that went into combat in Pomerania in February 1945 numbered only 2300 men, and was reduced to only 200 fit for duty. Many others finished training (in this case, some were at specialist schools as with the Walloons, but many were simply undergoing basic infantry training) and arrived at the Oder front in late March and early April 1945. This brought the division up to a strength of 4100 men. Another 2000 or so arrived in the next couple of weeks, leading up to the Soviet Berlin offensive of April 16, so that the division finally had about 6000 men, with another perhaps 6000 still in training (and perhaps 3000 who refused to serve).
The Walloons never truly approached divisional strength, and their Chief of Staff Frans Hellebaut sought to have the unit officially recognized once again as a brigade. With the Flemings, further time and improved circumstances could have allowed a full division of 12-13000 men to form, so the Langemarck Division shouldn't be treated in the "joke" manner it often is presented in in post-war publications.
I write in more detail about all of this in my Waffen-SS : Encyclopedia (2nd Edition, Aberjona Press, 2004). For material specifically about the Flemings in English seek out Allen Brandt's The Last Knight of Flanders (Schiffer, 1998). And in Flemish/Dutch, there's a huge wealth of information in Jan Vincx's Vlaanderen in Uniform (Etnika, 1980-85), which Stormman listed. I haven't seen Toelen's books, but I've read many positive comments, including Stormman's. And for the Walloons, check out various works by Eddy De Bruyne in French. I helped Eddy assemble an English language photo and text summary of his research as the book For Rex and For Belgium (Helion, 2004). All of these will help the interested reader learn more about Belgians in the Waffen-SS.
You're right Mark, although the 28. Wallonien Division numbered around 8000 men maybe a quarter of them was really combat effective, the others being over-age or teenage conscripts without any from of training. Same story for the Langemarck.
@Steuner: I don't have any other sources about the finnish battalion added to Langemarck when it was created, but i'm absolutely sure about the Spaniards and Frenchmen in Wallonien.
@Steuner: I don't have any other sources about the finnish battalion added to Langemarck when it was created, but i'm absolutely sure about the Spaniards and Frenchmen in Wallonien.
Is it aswell true that around 40.000 Belgians joined the SS??
I think thats a bit high...
because if Langemarck=7000
and Wallonien=8000
u will have like 25.000 guys left ??
Steuner
With other words:
At which devisions where Belgians placed??
(pls be complete, and say howmany... and also bataljon/regiment if possible)
Steuner
I think thats a bit high...
because if Langemarck=7000
and Wallonien=8000
u will have like 25.000 guys left ??
Steuner
With other words:
At which devisions where Belgians placed??
(pls be complete, and say howmany... and also bataljon/regiment if possible)
Steuner
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Marc Rikmenspoel
- Member
- Posts: 1131
- Joined: 12 Sep 2004, 07:44
- Location: Denver, Colorado USA
My estimates are that around 10,000 Walloons saw active service with the Waffen-SS during the war (in retrospect, while I wrote that figure in my Encyclopedia, I intended it to also include those who only served in the pre-Waffen-SS Legion Wallonie). For the Flemings, perhaps 8000 served up to September 1944, and many of those continued up to the end of the war, with maybe 5000 more joining them along the way. Several thousand more never got beyond basic training and thus didn't see active duty, which is explained above. This means that as a rough estimate, 23,000 Belgians did see active duty, while thousands more served in paramilitary formations. I would think the 40,000 figure would be to include military and paramilitary collaborators as a whole.
The first Belgians were Flemings who volunteered for Regiment Westland after June 1940. This was only a handful. The first sizeable number of Flemings to volunteer were those who joined the Standarte Nordwest after April 1941. This was broken up that summer, with the Flemish forming the cadre of the Legion Vlaanderen. At the same time, other Flemings volunteered directly for Westland, but with Wiking at times ended up with other elements of the division (and a handful even ended up in the Reich Division).
Also during the summer of 1941, the Legion Wallonie was formed. The AGRA party didn't get along with Rex, so around 300 AGRA men joined the Waffen-SS and were assigned to elements of Wiking.
Recovered wounded from the Legion Vlaanderen were often reassigned to Wiking, and some veteran Flemings in the spring of 1942 were assigned to the reforming Regiment Langemarck. This unit split into a motorcycle battalion, and the II. Abteilung of SS-Panzer Regiment 2, so a handful of Flemings became tankers in this manner. The other Flemings, in the motorcycle battalion, were reassigned to the new Sturmbrigade Langemarck in the spring of 1943, along with the survivors of the Legion Vlaanderen, and most of the Flemings in Wiking. From then on, a few Flemish were in II./SS-PR 2, and a larger number were in Wiking, but the vast majority were concentrated in the Langemarck Brigade/Division, though random individuals were found throughout the Waffen-SS (and a few dozen joined the Jagdverbände in 1944-45).
The Heer Legion Wallonie was converted in spring 1943 into the SS-Sturmbrigade Wallonien, and the AGRA Walloons from Wiking were sent to join this formation. From then on, Walloons were almost exclusively in the Brigade/Division Wallonien, aside from a few dozen with the Jagdverbände.
When collaborationist refugees were conscripted in Germany after September 1944, they came from a variety of political movements and backgrounds. They were sent to the Langemarck and the Wallonien to serve regardless of differences of opinion between DeVlag and the VNV among the Flemish, and AGRA and Rex among the Walloons.
I hope this sheds some further light on the service of Belgians in the Waffen-SS.
The first Belgians were Flemings who volunteered for Regiment Westland after June 1940. This was only a handful. The first sizeable number of Flemings to volunteer were those who joined the Standarte Nordwest after April 1941. This was broken up that summer, with the Flemish forming the cadre of the Legion Vlaanderen. At the same time, other Flemings volunteered directly for Westland, but with Wiking at times ended up with other elements of the division (and a handful even ended up in the Reich Division).
Also during the summer of 1941, the Legion Wallonie was formed. The AGRA party didn't get along with Rex, so around 300 AGRA men joined the Waffen-SS and were assigned to elements of Wiking.
Recovered wounded from the Legion Vlaanderen were often reassigned to Wiking, and some veteran Flemings in the spring of 1942 were assigned to the reforming Regiment Langemarck. This unit split into a motorcycle battalion, and the II. Abteilung of SS-Panzer Regiment 2, so a handful of Flemings became tankers in this manner. The other Flemings, in the motorcycle battalion, were reassigned to the new Sturmbrigade Langemarck in the spring of 1943, along with the survivors of the Legion Vlaanderen, and most of the Flemings in Wiking. From then on, a few Flemish were in II./SS-PR 2, and a larger number were in Wiking, but the vast majority were concentrated in the Langemarck Brigade/Division, though random individuals were found throughout the Waffen-SS (and a few dozen joined the Jagdverbände in 1944-45).
The Heer Legion Wallonie was converted in spring 1943 into the SS-Sturmbrigade Wallonien, and the AGRA Walloons from Wiking were sent to join this formation. From then on, Walloons were almost exclusively in the Brigade/Division Wallonien, aside from a few dozen with the Jagdverbände.
When collaborationist refugees were conscripted in Germany after September 1944, they came from a variety of political movements and backgrounds. They were sent to the Langemarck and the Wallonien to serve regardless of differences of opinion between DeVlag and the VNV among the Flemish, and AGRA and Rex among the Walloons.
I hope this sheds some further light on the service of Belgians in the Waffen-SS.
Any idea where I can buy <Vlaanderen in Uniform> ??Stormman wrote:If you really wont to know something about the Flemish <Oostfronters> read <Vlamingen aan het Oostfront> by Alfons Thoelen part I about the <Vlaamsch Legioen> and part II about the <Langemarck>.
But if you wont to dig deeper in the history of the Flemish movement, I would advice the 8 parts of <Vlaanderen in Uniform> by Jan Vincx.
I'm prolly also gonna buy <Vlamingen aan het Oostfront> and <Vlaamsch Legioen>
Steuner