The Belgium SS-Topic

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
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Prosper Vandenbroucke
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#16

Post by Prosper Vandenbroucke » 16 Mar 2006, 23:19

Steuner wrote:
Stormman wrote:If you really wont to know something about the Flemish <Oostfronters> read <Vlamingen aan het Oostfront> by Alfons Thoelen part I about the <Vlaamsch Legioen> and part II about the <Langemarck>.
But if you wont to dig deeper in the history of the Flemish movement, I would advice the 8 parts of <Vlaanderen in Uniform> by Jan Vincx.
Any idea where I can buy <Vlaanderen in Uniform> ??

I'm prolly also gonna buy <Vlamingen aan het Oostfront> and <Vlaamsch Legioen>

Steuner
Hello Steuner,
Hier onder misschien, Maybe here below, Peut-être ci-dessous:
http://www.proximedia.com/web/de-krijger.html
En vergeet ook Eddy De Bruyne 's boeken niet
And don't forget Eddy Debruyne's books
Et n'oublie pas les livres de Eddy De Bruyne
Doe een opzoeking via Google
Try a search by Google
Essaie une recherche via Google
Groetjes, Regards, Cordialement
Prosper

-Michael
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#17

Post by -Michael » 17 Mar 2006, 18:04

Steuner wrote:
Stormman wrote:If you really wont to know something about the Flemish <Oostfronters> read <Vlamingen aan het Oostfront> by Alfons Thoelen part I about the <Vlaamsch Legioen> and part II about the <Langemarck>.
But if you wont to dig deeper in the history of the Flemish movement, I would advice the 8 parts of <Vlaanderen in Uniform> by Jan Vincx.
Any idea where I can buy <Vlaanderen in Uniform> ??

I'm prolly also gonna buy <Vlamingen aan het Oostfront> and <Vlaamsch Legioen>

Steuner
Part I of <Vlamingen aan het Oostfront> is about the <Vlaamsch Legioen> and part II about the <Langemarck>, this aren't the titels of the books.
The two parts of <Vlamingen aan het Oostfront> and the eight parts of <Vlaanderen in Uniform> where released in the 70s and 80s by <Uitgeverij Etnika> who published other books by Flemish <Oostfronters> as well.
Now, <Uitgeverij De Krijger> bought the rights of <Uitgeverij Etnika>, when they closed the books and he re-published the two parts of <Vlamingen aan het Oostfront> and he's re-publishing <Vlaanderen in Uniform> but now in 16 parts in sted of 8 and they are a little bit in a bad state (bad photo/copie quality), but they are certainly the best books to read about this topic!


-Michael
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#18

Post by -Michael » 17 Mar 2006, 18:13

Marc Rikmenspoel wrote: Also during the summer of 1941, the Legion Wallonie was formed. The AGRA party didn't get along with Rex, so around 300 AGRA men joined the Waffen-SS and were assigned to elements of Wiking.
Hellow Marc Rikmenspoel
This question is maybe a little bit offtopic. I don't know nothing about the AGRA, but wheren't the members as Walloons not considered as <non Germanic>? How could they join the Waffen-SS in 1941?

Marc Rikmenspoel
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#19

Post by Marc Rikmenspoel » 17 Mar 2006, 21:42

Stormman, my publisher at Aegis-Aberjona had the same question when I prepared my Encyclopedia! The AGRA movement was an acronym for Amis du Grand Reich Allemand (Friends of the Greater German Reich). Its mission statement involved the declaration that the Walloons were of Germanic descent, and that, as such, Wallonia should be annexed to Germany to form another Gau of the Reich. In this regard, it was similar to DeVlag in Flanders, since DeVlag also sought annexation by Germany (as opposed to the VNV, which only sought Flemish independence, in alliance with Germany).

What many people don't realize is that from the 1930's, the SS began to practice foreign policy. It only did so successfully, and at the expense of Ribbentrop's Foreign Ministry, in the latter stages of the war, but the seeds were sown long before. What this meant in most European countries was that there was a political party willing to work with the Germans as a whole, and usually some more extreme element that worked closely with the SS. During the war, particularly in light of German occupation/alliance with much of Europe, it developed that the more moderate faction in a country would be in competition with the more extreme element. In Romania, Germany backed Antonescu, while the SS backed the Iron Guard. In Norway, Germany backed Nasjonal Samling as a whole, while the SS backed the men who founded the GSSN (Norwegian General-SS, which was a part of NS). In Flanders, Germany backed the VNV, while the SS backed DeVlag. And in Wallonia, Germany backed Rex, while the SS had ties with AGRA. The latter was never very large, and after early 1943, the SS "dropped" them, and threw its support behind the person of Degrelle, who no longer really represented Rex (which was falling apart), but instead represented himself and his followers.

All this maneuvering in Wallonia was still in the future in 1941 when Barbarossa began. The SS didn't have any claim on Rex, which was still seen as a Belgian nationalist movement, and the Francophone Walloons were formed into a Heer volunteer unit, as were French volunteers who formed the Legion Francais. But the men of AGRA already claimed to be Germanic, and AGRA members were not welcome in the Legion Wallonie, since Degrelle demanded loyalty to Rex and to himself. So the Waffen-SS accepted these 300 or so men who claimed Germanic descent and who had the backing of the SS overall. The situation had changed in 1943, so that the surviving AGRA Waffen-SS were sent to the SS-backed SS-Sturmbrigade Wallonien. In 1944-45, surviving men of the AGRA NSKK Brigade were also sent to the SS-Wallonien Division.

The above doesn't make sense on strictly rational grounds, but I hope it does make some sense in the context of rival foreign policies within the German hierarchy.
Last edited by Marc Rikmenspoel on 18 Mar 2006, 00:13, edited 1 time in total.

-Michael
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#20

Post by -Michael » 17 Mar 2006, 22:38

Thank you very much for sharing this valuable information with us!
Who where the leaders of the AGRA?

Marc Rikmenspoel
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#21

Post by Marc Rikmenspoel » 18 Mar 2006, 00:11

The leaders were Alfons De Boungne, Julien Velut, Georges Scaillet, and finally Jean Gerits. I know nothing about these men, and all the details on AGRA I shared above are courtesy of my colleague Eddy De Bruyne, as we presented it in our English language book.

As an aside, Eddy has followed this thread, and he pointed out to me that in his estimation, no more than 8500 men ever saw service with the Legion Wallonie and follow-up Waffen-SS brigade/division. I certainly won't argue with his expertise on this topic, which far exceeds mine!

Steuner
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#22

Post by Steuner » 18 Mar 2006, 11:04

Stormman wrote:
Steuner wrote:
Stormman wrote:If you really wont to know something about the Flemish <Oostfronters> read <Vlamingen aan het Oostfront> by Alfons Thoelen part I about the <Vlaamsch Legioen> and part II about the <Langemarck>.
But if you wont to dig deeper in the history of the Flemish movement, I would advice the 8 parts of <Vlaanderen in Uniform> by Jan Vincx.
Any idea where I can buy <Vlaanderen in Uniform> ??

I'm prolly also gonna buy <Vlamingen aan het Oostfront> and <Vlaamsch Legioen>

Steuner
Part I of <Vlamingen aan het Oostfront> is about the <Vlaamsch Legioen> and part II about the <Langemarck>, this aren't the titels of the books.
The two parts of <Vlamingen aan het Oostfront> and the eight parts of <Vlaanderen in Uniform> where released in the 70s and 80s by <Uitgeverij Etnika> who published other books by Flemish <Oostfronters> as well.
Now, <Uitgeverij De Krijger> bought the rights of <Uitgeverij Etnika>, when they closed the books and he re-published the two parts of <Vlamingen aan het Oostfront> and he's re-publishing <Vlaanderen in Uniform> but now in 16 parts in sted of 8 and they are a little bit in a bad state (bad photo/copie quality), but they are certainly the best books to read about this topic!
Bad quality??
=/

Butta =>
Eddy De Bruyne => Who is he ??

And about those walloniens...I read already a bit in <Vlaanderen in Uniform> and it sais its unpossible that 40K belgian soldiers where in the Waffen-SS, only 10K(which 5K where flemisch) served in the Waffen-SS.

Steuner

-Michael
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#23

Post by -Michael » 18 Mar 2006, 14:04

Steuner wrote:

Bad quality??
=/

Butta =>
Eddy De Bruyne => Who is he ??

And about those walloniens...I read already a bit in <Vlaanderen in Uniform> and it sais its unpossible that 40K belgian soldiers where in the Waffen-SS, only 10K(which 5K where flemisch) served in the Waffen-SS.

Steuner
I don't understand your question very well. But there where many Flemish ex-Belgian Soldiers serving in the Waffen-SS. In 1940 many young Flemish men where mobilized in the Belgian Army, when they got in captivity they where so impressed that they vollunteerd for the Waffen-SS or the Freiwilligenlegion Flandern.

-Michael
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#24

Post by -Michael » 18 Mar 2006, 14:11

Even some ex-Belgian Army Majors Joined the Waffen-SS like:
SS-Sturmbannführer Franz Hellebaut
SS-Sturmbannführer Jef De Bruyne, Kommandeur of the III.Abteilung/SS-Artillerie-Regiment 27
SS-Sturmbannführer Jan De Meulder, Kommandeur of the II.Batallion/SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 68
He fell on the Oderfront in April 1945 on the head of his Batallion, that was by the way part of the Kampfgruppe Hellebaut.

Steuner
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#25

Post by Steuner » 18 Mar 2006, 22:12

Alright some questions coming up=>
But first...Here are the numbers of the amount of Flemish with the Waffen-SS
=>
1 Mai 1940:
From Belgium 7 guys and also from Holland 7

27 September 1940:
45 of the 445 guys who applied are going to the Waffen-SS

10 Mai 1941:
154 Flemish in the 'Nordwest'(what is that?? A sort of division or a Regiment orsumthing??)
543 Hollanders in the 'Nordwest'

25 Mai 1941:
150 Flemish and Hollander in the 'Nordwest'

So between 10 and 25 Mai more then 540 Flemish and Hollanders left 'Nordwest'(correct me if I'm wrong)

1 Juni 1941:
1.200 Flemish with de Nordwest-Westland-Ersatz and Ausbildungs units

6 August 1941:
405 Flemish for the Flemish Legion

September 1941:
52 Flemish have melded themselfs

4 September 1941:
34 Flemish moved from Sennheim to Standarte 'Westland'

19 September 194:
The meldings of 45 Flemish for the Standarte 'Westland'.
On that date already 3 guys died, 8 guys got EK II klass, 10 guys injured, 30 guys got a <Storm-kenteken>(what is it in Dutch??) and no promotions

1 Oktober 1941:
The strengt of the Flemish Legion before its moval:
1.112 soldiers which are 950 Flemish.

28 November 1941:
...

Etc etc

on 15 Januari 1942:
1.571 Flemish guys vollunteerd...

2 Mai 1942:
'Flemish Legion' strenght only 256 guys for battle

And I can go on like that...

So my first question is...What is the diffirence between the Flemish Legion and Sturmbrigade 'Langemarck'??
Is it that for a Sturmbrigade you need 57 officers, 528 underofficers and 1.359 soldiers??

Because in August 1943 Langemarck countet 1.994 Guys...(in which 130 hiwis, Russian POW's who wanted to help the Germans)

Around August 1943 also this=>
Vollunteers:
3517 Flemish + 336 deaths...

On 6 December 1943 Langemarck counted 2021 soldiers
But on 31 December 1943 only 1.470(+600 with 'Wicking' and other divisions)

and Wallonien had 1.972 guys

on 17 April 1944:
Langemarck: 1.864 guys

on 30 Juni 1944:
Langemarck: 1.731 guys
while the Wallonien only had 1.188 soldiers

So the Wallonien guys had more losses then the Langemarck guys(??)

On 10 September 1944:
Langemarck: 1.767 guys
Kampfgruppe 'Rehmann': 245 guys
On 20 September 1944:
Langemarck: 1.941 guys
Wallonien: 1.565 guys

BUT!!
On 5 December 1944 Langemarck had around 6.000 soldiers(Division Langemarck !!)

So how could it be that Langemarck(Division) had in 1 moment 4.000 soldiers more then Sturmbrigade Langemarck??

And then also the question about around howmany Flemish soldiers served in the waffen-SS
=>
4.102 Guys in Division Langemarck
then also 150 guys who where in 502 Jagdverbände
400 soldiers in Wiking, Nordland and other divisions
150 guys still in training
1.000 wounded + routed troops
1.307 deaths
300 Badly wounded
530 missing
+ 94 guys who where moved to schools, ...
Total 8.033 guys

And also:
Is there a reason why 3 Walloniens got the Ritterkreuz while only 1 Flemish+1 guy who was born in Flanders
Léon Degrelle even got the oakleaves...

The 3 Walloniens:
Léon Degrelle
Leon Gillis
Jacques Leroy

The guy who was born in Flanders:
Adolf Ax

And the only Flemish:
Richard(Remi) Schrijnen(Destroyed 7 tanks)

Do you guys also know why those 3 Walloniens got the Ritterkreuz??

And the last question... Where(I think near Narwa) did he destroyed his 7 tanks, which tanks where it and where they British/Russian or American??

Loads of thx in advance...

Steuner

Steuner
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#26

Post by Steuner » 19 Mar 2006, 11:26

Remi Schrijnen destroyed 7 tanks=>
Schrijnen was a Pak gunner (Panzer Abwehrkanone) in 3 Kompanie armed with the 75 mm Pak anti-tank gun.
March 1944 in northern Russia, his unit repelled a Soviet armourattack. Schrijnen was soon left alone but remained at his post. In a dramatic engagement, he destroyed three Josef Stalin and four T-34 tanks; his weapon was subsequently blown up by another tank. Schrijnen was injured but was rescued in a counterattack.

Which IS would it be?? a 1 or a 2??
And those T-34's, where they upgraded ones??Or original ones...

Steuner

Steuner
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#27

Post by Steuner » 19 Mar 2006, 14:56

...

6. SS-Freiwilligen-Sturmbrigade Langemarck was formed 22 Oct 1943 when SS-Freiwilligen-Sturmbrigade Langemarck was redesignated.

It was upgraded to 27. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division Langemarck (flämische Nr. 1) 19 Oct 1944.

So guys, tell me how in the world Langemarck could get 4K soldiers in around 1/2 months??

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#28

Post by Marc Rikmenspoel » 19 Mar 2006, 21:27

This isn't difficult. From June 1940, Flemish and Dutch were welcome to volunteer for the Regiment Westland, though some who did do ended up in other parts of the Wiking Division, or even in the (Das Reich) Division. These men had volunteered to serve in the Waffen-SS.

In the spring of 1941, a new SS regiment was set up, for men who wanted to serve closer to home, since the Westland and Nordland Regiments (the latter for Danes and Norwegians) could, in theory, have been sent to North Africa or anywhere else. The new SS-Standarte Nordwest was set up to recruit Flemish, Dutch and Danes for service as a sort of militarized police in their home countries. The unit was split up in the summer of 1941 with the men forming the cadre of the national legions, which were set up to fight on the Eastern Front. These legions were to be national in character, so that Flemings would belong, in theory, to a Flemish unit, as opposed to those who volunteered for Westland, which was a German unit that included Germanic volunteers.

The national legions were administrated by the Waffen-SS, but again, in theory, were natioanl units with the backing of political elements back home (the VNV, in the case of Flanders). In practice, the legions became second class Waffen-SS units, which had to make due with lesser quality German officers and which lost most of their recovered wounded to the Wiking Division, only getting replacements via new recruits.

In 1943 the national legions were dissolved, and converted into full Waffen-SS units, with improved weapons and better quality German officers (to the degree they were needed to make up the shortage of native officers). The Legion Vlaanderen was converted into the Sturmbrigade Langemarck, and almost all available Flemings were sent to it, so that few were left in Wiking from then on.

Belgium was liberated in September 1944, and thousands of collaborators fled to Germany. There, virtually all Flemish men under the age of 45 or so were told that they were now assigned to the Waffen-SS, regardless of whether their previous service had been in the NSKK, in the Kriegsmarine, or in the OT or so on. that's how there was suddenly a massive increase in the available Flemings. But only around 2000 men were trained soldiers, the rest needed training, and gradually received it up through the end of the war.

As to the Knight's Cross, Degrelle was a propaganda figure. After Cherksaay, he was awarded the Knight's Cross to recognize the success of the Walloons (who provided the rearguard for the breakout) and as a bit of a publicity stunt. He got to meet Hitler, and gained some political clout. As such, he was able to recommend subordinates for high awards, such as the Knight's Cross Leon Gillis received.

With the Flemish, by 1944 the VNV had scaled back its collaboration with Germany after becoming disillusioned. Many Flemings were outspoken in their criticism of German policies, and thus higher German authorities declined to approve awards for them. A prime case was Georg D'Haese, who ended up commanding KG-Rehmann on the Tannenberg Line. Felix Steiner wanted to award D'Haese the German Cross in Gold, but he never received the decoration. Remy Schrijnen so distinguished himself as a Pak gunner north of Orphanage Hill during the Tannenberg Fighting that he was proposed for the Honor Roll of the German Army. During discussions about this, it was decided that having a Flemish Knight's Cross winner would be better for propaganda and morale now that Langemarck was being expanded into a division (the award was dated September 21). It helped that Schrijnen was a junior NCO, rather than an officer with more outspoken views such as D'Haese.

Does this clarify matters?

Steuner
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#29

Post by Steuner » 19 Mar 2006, 22:35

I'm gonna read it tomorow, thx btw ;)

Steuner

Steuner
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#30

Post by Steuner » 20 Mar 2006, 21:11

Alright, a total other question which is a bit off-topic, while its on-topic...

Does anybody know where Richard Schrijnen lives??
I know he moved to Germany with his wife...

Steuner

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