who was the best Allied general?

[sunbury2]

I still vote for Messervy, as much for his wide experience of level of command, enemy he faced, and whether his side was in the acendancy or not.

Steve

I can't agree, Messervy destroyed the 7th Armoured Division through his incompetency. He threw away overwhelming superiority by feeding tanks into battle in penny packets.

For a Divisional Commander, I want to propose Leslie Morshead, Commander of the 9th Australian Division. At Tobruk he took green (raw) troops and fashioned them into elite troops. What is also often overlooked is that at Tobruk, he and his men were in an unfamiliar place with very little time to organise a defence.

He was dubbed by the German propaganda broadcaster, Lord Haw Haw, 'Ali Baba Morshead and his 40,000 thieves'. Lord Haw Haw also gave those at Tobruk their most famous nickname, the 'Rats of Tobruk', by broadcasting that they were caught like 'rats in a trap'.

He was the first Allied General to defeat Blitzkrieg and for the bulk of 1941, until Crusader, the only successful general in the Western Desert against the Afrika Korp.

In 1942 at the Second Battle of El Alamein, the 9th Australian Division was given the hardest role in the Battle, attacking along the coast road. He proved himself more than equal to the task, proving himself a master of attack and defence against the Afrika Korp. His Division's "crumbling attack" drawing in the bulk of the Afrika Korp was crucial to the success of the Battle.

At one point he was Acting Commander of XXX Corp but the British Army did not promote colonial officers especially "part time soldiers" and the inexperienced British General Leese was brought out from Britian to command XXX Corp. Leese was "junior" to Morshead and had never commanded a Division in battle. The "Trade Union of British Generals" always protected their own. One legitimate complaint about the British is they were slow to sack incompetent Generals and always looked after their own interests.

NB It was General Thomas Blamey, commanding Australians in the Desert who commented on "the Bloody Trade Union of British Generals" after yet another fiasco that was being swept under the carpet.

Later Morshead commanded the Australian 2nd Corps in New Guinea, quickly defeating a major Japanese attack at Finschhafen. Later he took command of the the 2nd Army. He stepped down from that role as it was a non combat command and took charge of the 1st Australian Corp for the battles in Borneo.

Interestingly, yet again the British Army tried to impose a British general for the role, again with no combat experience against the Japanese, it was rejected. If the Atomic Bomb had not happened, Borneo would have been a springboard for Singapore. Hence the British Army meddling.

Morshead gave a lecture in 1947 on Rommel, and described "Blitzkrieg" as "a very limited tactical manoeuvre".

He is largely unknown outside Australia, indeed his private papers were not published (and only then partially) till 2006 in the book "Tobruk" by Peter Fitzsimmons.

The British do not like to be shown their failings and the Americans sadly rarely look beyond their own history.


http://www.ww2australia.gov.au/beyond/ali-baba.html
http://ww2db.com/person_bio.php?person_id=472

just for some fun a poem.

ALI BABA MORSHEAD
Anonymous
Jerry had us on the run, the news was far from hot,
He had his feet in Egypt and the Sphinx was on the spot,
So Auchinleck despondent sent signals out in sheaves
To Ali Baba Morshead and his twenty thousand thieves.

So Leslie called his officers and whispered in their ears,
And his message went to Auchy "Have a spot and drown your fears.
We'll make that blinking Rommel think he's got the desert heaves,
With Ali Baba Moorshead and his twenty thousand thieves."

So we travelled down from Syria by tank and truck and car,
Leaving Tel Aviv and Haifa and pleasant towns afar.
Both Cairo and Alex were left to grieve
For losing Ali Baba Moorshead and his twenty thousand thieves.

So we came back to the desert, well-known from days of yore,
And stopped the foe at Alamein close by the Meddy shore.
The Eyeties were pathetic, the Huns fell back like leaves
From Ali Baba Moorshead and his twenty thousand thieves.

Now Rommel's got a headache, his tanks can't take a trick,
His Afrik' Corps are not so hot and his air force makes us sick;
His dreams of looting Egypt are ditched and he is peeved
With Ali Baba Moorshead andhis twenty thousand thieves,

We have Kittyhawks and Hurricanes and bombers by the score,
Dropping loads on Jerry's bases and rushing back for more.
And it's sure that Rommel's stonkered, whatever plans he weaves
'Gainst Ali Baba Moorshead and his twenty thousand thieves.

Edited to fix my typos

[Fatboy Coxy]

Hi Sunbury2, Morshead is a good call, and a good comparator to Messervy .

Messervy didn’t perform well as 7th Armoured Div commander, but he wasn’t exactly alone in struggling with managing armour, indeed I see in him an example of how badly the British were failing in understanding how to managing armour in general. But he did learn from this and as Director of Armoured Fighting Vehicles in India (1943) argued for their use in Burma, which was proven right in the fighting in 1944/45.

Morshead’s baptism of fire with the 9th Australian Div was at Tobruk. To his immense credit he knitted the 9th Australian’s, an inexperienced formation, with other units into an efficient defence of Tobruk. He was fortunate to fight from a fixed position, where he could use all his experience from the First World War fighting on the Western Front. His Sobriquet “Ming the Merciless” was well fitting.

After that Morshead was fortunate to fight battles with the tempo set by the Allies, the butchers bill at El Alamein was heavy, but with success so close, understandable. I have to confess to ignorance over his involvement in the SW Pacific, knowing little more than what Wikipedia might tell me.

February 1944 saw Messervy (7th Indian Div) fighting another battle set at the Japanese tempo which with Allied air support he was able to withstand, after which he went over to the offensive. And later they were redeployed to become part of the British counter attack at Kohima.

Both Morshead and Messervy were very good generals within the confines of what they knew. The mistakes Messervy made with the 7th Armoured could just as easily been made by Morshead, as neither had any previous experience of Armour. But both understood their respective troops well. As a one off example of generalship I would accept Morshead at Tobruk over Messervy at the Admin Box, but for variation of enemies, and the changing ebb and flow of fortunes of war within the different theatres they fought in, I would pick Messervy, for the difficulties he had to overcome.

Steve

[genstab]

HodgeB,

I've just been reading Ralph Ingersoll's 'Top Secret'.

According to that book Monty's decisions lengthened the war by at least 6 months (due to halting the US advance into Germany) - and if the Americans hadn't managed to win the Battle of the Bulge, despite Monty, it could have lasted another year.

Dear God, are you serious? Montgomery might have had his faults as a General, and even more as a person, but not even he deserved the traversty that is "Top Secret". My dear chap, Ingesoll was a journalist, need I say more!!

Regards

Tom

Hmmm- William L. Shirer was "a journalist" also, but he wrote one of the best factual historical books on Nazi Germany ever written before the ULTRA secret was exposed.

Best regards,
Bill in Cleveland (the big one)

[Tom from Cornwall]

Bill,

I was perhaps being a little harsh on journalists in general (although I'm willing to debate that from a historical point of view), have you read "Top Secret" though? It is so biaised that I whilst reading it I did wonder whether Ingersoll was working for the Soviet Union and trying to split the US and UK up after WW2. Perhaps this was a bit harsh on the men, but as a historical source I would suggest that it should be treated with great care - perhaps it's only historical value is that it indicates the depth of anti-UK (and particularly anti-Montgomery) feeling held by some of the staff in 12 US Army Group. Certainly no indication that I have seen, of Eisenhower's alleged quote that you could call someone a "SOB" but he would send you home if you called someone a "British (or American) SOB" - at least that's what they say he said!

Hmmm- William L. Shirer was "a journalist" also, but he wrote one of the best factual historical books on Nazi Germany ever written before the ULTRA secret was exposed.

Hmmm - why would the exposure of the Ultra secret change a history of Nazi Germany? Do you mean he wrote one of the best 'factual historical books' using the sources open to him before 1972?

Regards

Tom

[genstab]

Yes, I read "Top Secret" because i was curious. Ingersoll was a left winger at the time when cooperation with the Soviet Union was popular, before the atrocities of Stalin were exposed. I agree he exaggerates though my memory of the book iis dim; I'm usually immersed in military histories written by professionals. I just wanted to point up what I believe to be true- some journalists know very well how to research and write a good work of general history. But then you get the doctors and professors all offended and huffing about credentials....talk about a tempest in a teapot, a revival of the attempted denigration of the fantastic Barbara Tuchman whose "Guns of August" was fascinating as well as some of her other works.

Yes, you are also right about ULTRA probably not affecting a comprehensive history of Nazi Germany as Shirer didn't write a military history for which he wasn't qualified- I did mean of the books completed before the time Winterbotham exposed the ULTRA secret and the history of World War II had to be drastically revised.

Best regards,
Bill in Cleveland (the big one)

[Tom from Cornwall]

Bill,

I agree with all that you wrote - and concede that some "some journalists know very well how to research and write a good work of general history" - I just don't count Ingersoll's "Top Secret" as either a "good work" or even "history".

BTW why is Cleveland the "Big One" - is there a little one?

Regards

Tom

[Urmel]

I still vote for Messervy, as much for his wide experience of level of command, enemy he faced, and whether his side was in the acendancy or not.

Steve

Don't know Steve. He managed to lose two armoured divisions, so that has to count against him.

[Fatboy Coxy]

Hi Urmel

Let’s put Messervy's failure with the 1st and 7th Armoured divisions into perspective.

Having no previous experience commanding armoured formations, Messervy was "parachuted into 1st Armoured, Jan 42, when its commander Herbert Lumsden was wounded, probably because with Rommel's offensive coming that same month, an experienced desert commander was thought needed, to help steady it, having only just arrived less than three months earlier. That the division didn't perform well is in part due to Messervy, but also due to the inexperience of the division, and the general British tank operating doctrine. Messervy wasn't going to be the last British general taught a lesson by Rommel. In March 42 He handed back command to Lumsden on his return to duty.

End of Feb 42, the divisional commander for 7th Armoured Div, Jock Campbell, had been killed. Messervy was moved straight into command of this division. Three months later Messervy's 7th Armoured was fighting the Battle of Gazala, where British tactics were again shown up by Rommel. Part of 7ths poor performance can be attributed to Messervys command post being surprised by the German 90th Light Div, Messervy spent two days escaping capture, and not commanding when they need direction most. In late June 42, Ritchie relieved him of his command.

With the end of the Battle of Gazala, the loss of Tobruk, and finally the shoring up of the British lines in the First Battle of El Alamein, the British were able to reflect. Auchinleck was relieved of command. Too many appointments of commanders had been failures, Richie promoted to Eight Army commander, not having commanded a Corps, was later, after a natural progression of commanding a division, proved to be an able Corps commander. Gott, an able Armoured Div Commander, had been promoted to command an Infantry Corps, are other examples of placing officers into roles they had no experience of, and subsequently were found wanting.

If you can name a general placed in similar position to what happed to Messervy, and show me a success, I’d have to reconsider Messervy’s claim, but I don’t think anyone else could of done much better!

Steve

[Urmel]

I know the context.

I'm just saying that in order to have a claim to be the best general, he probably should have done better with the divisions.

Me, I'm partial to Hobart. Trained two very good armoured divisions to high effectiveness (7 and 11 Armoured) and apparently ran 79 Armoured extremely well.

[Fatboy Coxy]

Hobart is a very interesting character, didn’t have enough combat experience to quality as a candidate for best general IMHO, but as an innovator and adaptor of the use of tanks, he was superb. I don’t think he has a comparator in any of the armies, for what he was doing. I’d guess his previous experience in the Royal Engineers must have helped him enormously.

Clearly he had great difficulty persuading the establishment on how best to use tanks, with Wavell dismissing him, and Brooke going close, saved by a “happy brainwave”. Having Monty as a brother in law couldn’t have hurt, but I’m not sure Monty understood tanks anything like “Hobo” did. In the wider field Liddell Hart championed him, and apparently Guderian took note of him. One wonders what he would have done if he was German!

Now if Wavell hadn’t dismissed him, and his health and age held up, how much better might the British had been in tank warfare, earlier on in the North African campaign? Maybe he could have been the best Allied General!

Steve

[redcoat]

Having Monty as a brother in law couldn’t have hurt, but I’m not sure Monty understood tanks anything like “Hobo” did. Steve

They didn't like each other. The only thing the two had in common was a reputation for being 'difficult'.

[Urmel]

Having Monty as a brother in law couldn’t have hurt, but I’m not sure Monty understood tanks anything like “Hobo” did. Steve

But there was no need for him to do so. He was an infantry man, and he was good at fighting major combined arms battles. That's what they employed him for. If anyone had thought he was good with tanks, they would've given him an armoured division.

[Aber]

Part of 7ths poor performance can be attributed to Messervys command post being surprised by the German 90th Light Div,

Being surprised in the desert in daylight, does not reflect well on the general in charge...