Changing topic slightly (back to Civil War period). I dug up a thread on a photo of the Germans attacking outside Helsinki. One of the signs says "Haltepunkt" which someone suggested was German. Out of curiosity, I'm posting this plus subsequent discussion and images verbatim from the flickr thread where this was posted to see what everyone here thinks.
Heres the link to the flickr threadhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/65817306@N00/56972485/
Comments and faves
timonoko (64 months ago | reply)
Upper sign says in swedish "Ladugården", better know as "Latokartano" north-east from Helsinki. However I do not recognize the scene and the house being anywhere near Latokartano.
Pasi 68 (37 months ago | reply)
What a great picture.
I used Google Map to find this place.
Here is the map I used.
First clue is the railway.
There used to be a railway in Viikki. Latokartano is a part of Viikki in Helsinki. So there are still traces of that old railway. Seek for Mendelinkuja on the map. Under that seems to be a small forest. Watch closely. Those lines cutting through the forest might be traces of the old railway. It used to be somewhere nearby. Then on the left side of that Mendelinkuja is a small (spots and lines) field. I think that this field was the actual place where the picture was taken. It might be somewhere else too. I have to check the place some day.
Jens-Olaf (37 months ago | reply)
I cannot add much information but here are the railways, a map from 1913. Two lines heading out of Helsinki.
timonoko (37 months ago | reply)
I have a better map and you are exactly right, it seems that they have added a new curve to the railway.
In the old map one can see a building close to the railway just like in the picture.
timonoko (36 months ago | reply)
From "Memories of 1918" TV-show
Sameli (30 months ago | reply)
I'm pretty sure that this is not from Viikki/Latokartano area. Looks like it's from Huopalahti station.
Jens-Olaf (30 months ago | reply)
Maybe you all have noticed the second photo, the house in the background to the right.
Pasi 68 (27 months ago | reply)
This is a very intriguing photo. I've had a lot of fun trying to resolve its' mystery. Some thoughts about the location of this picture.
I don't think it is possible that this picture could be from Huopalahti or that the line here is a tramline at all.
First of all: It really says Ladugården on the sign. This is Swedish for Latokartano which is a place in Helsinki. The place is named after an old estate of the same name. At the time this picture was taken it was not part of Helsinki. Secondly: it doesn't look like a tramline. There is no road beside it. And there is also only one track and no electric wires between those posts. I also found a document that says that a railway through Latokartano area was not built until the early 1930's.
So how about thinking it this way. The German troops (9000+) arrived in Helsinki in 1918 from three directions. From the west (Espoo), from the sea and from the north via Tikkurila. From Tikkurila there was already a railtrack to the direction of Latokartano. Here is a quotation from a historical text concernign Pukinmäki (which is an area close to Latokartano). "In 1862 a railway was built across the area of Pukinmäki. Sir Hjalmar (doctor Hjalmar von Bonsdorff) did not however want to ride a horse to the Malmi railway station which had been built in 1870. In 1886 he managed to get a platform beside his own estate. The platform was inside the Bocksbacka estate and was given the name of Bocksbacka (Pukinmäki). At first the platform served only two estates but later became important once a community of villas started being planned to the area".
So when this picture was taken there were over 130 villas in the area of Pukinmäki. Villas of that era looked exactly like the one in the picture. And if you look closely you can see another villa in the distance. (Sadly this garden suburb was demolished during the 1970's. I'm not sure if there are any such villas left). It might be that the sign is actually a signpost pointing east to the direction of Latokartano (just two kilometers away from Pukinmäki). There is clearly a road ending on the right side of the track. Maybe it's the way to Latokartano estate.
Conclusion. Like Timo earlier said this surely doesn't look like Latokartano at all. But it would be quite logical that a suburb of villas in Pukinmäki looked like this in 1918. Now we know that Sir Hjalmar's railtrack ran beside it and that some german troops came to Helsinki through this area.
Links (all in Finnish sorry):
History of trams in Helsinki http://www.hel2.fi/hkl/ratikka_historia/su/historia1%20_1.html
Document about the railway in Latokartano http://www.hel2.fi/ksv/Paatoksenteko/2004_Kaupunkisu%20unnittelulau...
History of Pihlajanmäki area: http://www.kolumbus.fi/aune.greggas/SUOMI/PIHLAJAMAK%20I/AARNI.html...
The attack of German troops: http://www.novision.fi/viapori/sotilaat.htm
Pasi 68 (27 months ago | reply)
Railway buillt in Latokartano area around 1930's. Now it's abandoned.http://www.flickr.com/photos/pasi68/sets/72157608177%20656543/
Jens-Olaf (27 months ago | reply)
Pasi 68, thanks for the info, I've googled now with other keywords:
Here they say it's between Hangö and Helsingfors: The Photo was published, just found it today
'German machine gun unit fighting the Red Guard on the railway line from Hanko to Helsinki'
It's from the website Ersatzheere:
It could be the Brandenstein unit:
'Brandenstein Brigade: On April 7, 1918, the German Brandenstein Brigade or Detachment landed in Finland, made up of 3,000 German troops, under the command of German officer Colonel or Oberst Otto Freiherr von Brandenstein, seized the town of Loviisa. Major German units and detachments then rapidly advanced towards Helsinki, which was taken by German troops on April 13.'
Maybe it is also important to look at the shadows, it is early spring time, the shadows showing a certain direction depends on the day time but definetily not to the South. A map showing two train lines in 1918http://www.novision.fi/viapori/dehelsinkikartta.htm
Pasi 68 (27 months ago | reply)
This gets even more interesting. Thanks Jens-Olaf for the links and the additional info. I think the shadows in the picture are really something to think about. There is quite good information about the Brandenstein Brigade fightings and movements behind this link (in Finnish): [url]fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osasto_Brandenstein[/url]
It says that Baron von Brandenstein never fought in Helsinki. His troops invaded Lahti 2.5.1918 though.
I found a link saying that von Brandenstein lost 3 officers and 94 soldiers in fightings against the reds in Finland. http://www.helsinki.fi/~jjeerola/englstap.htm
The troops that invaded Helsinki were Die Ostsee Division. Those soldiers fought under Rüdiger von der Goltz's command. Actually von Brandensteins troop was joined to Ostsee Division later.
About the book and the picture in it. It's the second picture taken just after the first one. There is no signpost in this picture. So it might be that when they made the book after the war they didn't know where the picture was actually taken. Maybe they made an error there. This could indicate that there might be some other errors. I really appreciate the work of these soldiers and the people who made this book. But I think there is no actual battle going on in this picture. Would the photographers and cinematographers really have been standing in the middle of the fight? Reds used snipers and it doesn't sound realistic that these cameramen would have taken that kind of a risk. Maybe these pictures were shot for propaganda purpouses?
So back to the start. Fact is that there is a signpost saying "Ladugården" and that is very hard evidence identifying the spot where the picture was taken.
Here is a link to a page where all Finnish places are translated to our second language Swedish. There is only one Ladugården in the list and that is Latokartano in Helsinki.
Here is a link to a Googlemap showing the area of Pukinmäki nowadays. I guess that the position of the railway is close to the railway of 90 years ago. [url]maps.google.fi/maps?q=loviisa&ie=UTF8& oe=utf-8&am...[/url]
About the shadows. I'm no expert on this at all but do you think that this could be afternoon sun making long shadows on the ground? If it is, perhaps the sun could have been shining from about south-west direction, almost in line with the railroad track. If that's the case, the track would have been running from approximately south-west to north-east. As it happens, the railroad that runs in Pukinmäki today, is routed just that way, from north-east to south-west. Is this too good to be true?
Jens-Olaf (27 months ago | reply)
Good, I also agree: It very looks like a scene for the camera.
In timonokos video a switch is visible very good. Two lines (?) joining here, and near Ladugarden, Latokartano. Or not far. I'll go to check the old maps on the internet again.
Russian military map 1902
Jens-Olaf (4 months ago | reply)
"However the main even of this day was beginning of German attack to Helsinki, Finnish capital, which had been in hands of the Reds for duration of the war this far. The attack started from around Huopalahti in the morning and continued with heavy fighting east of Huopalahti. Fiercest combat took place in Ilmala on hill of meteorological station and on rocks of Pasila. Also area around Fredriksberg Engine Works (where most armoured trains of the Reds had been built) was fight over and the Germans captured it around 1 PM. In Pasila the Germans succeeded ambushing train full of Reds coming from the Helsinki railway station."
"PICTURE: Troops of German Ostsee Division with their Maxim M/08-15 machineguns in Huopalahti during their attack to Helsinki. Photo from Suomen Vapaussota kuvissa 2 (edition published 1934)" , this is the other picture:http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/TRAINS5.htm
Pasi 68 (2 months ago | reply)
I have a new theory about the location where the picture/pictures might have been taken.
As told before there were no tracks in the Viikki area in 1918.
I made quite a lot of searching through the net. And I have to say, there are bits and pieces of information all around.
First. Let's see what we've already got. There are two pictures and one film about the scene. Jens-Olaf's picture "Attack of German Army in Finland WWI" (number 8488) was taken first. It has some crucial evidence that started this all. The search. The beter known picture (number 8466) where the soldiers lie on the ground was taken only a moment later. This quite well-known picture is said to be taken in Huopalahti. Seems that Jens-Olaf's picture includes evidence that tells a different story. Maybe the place was not as many historical books (Marshal Mannerheim's Memoirs for example) and museums and the internet tell. What if the historians made a mistake? It is quite understandable. There was a civil war going on, a lot of drama going on. The numbers on the photos are not next to each other. There is a numerical gap. What if there was a picture that the Finns bought or got and there was just a little bit of info included? The Finns never got the other picture, which included written evidence of the location! The main force of the Ostsee Division attacked through the area of Huopalahti for sure, BUT Generalmajor von der Goltz sent the 3rd Ulanen-Regiment to go to a different direction. Maybe the photographers chose or were told to go with these 3rd Ulanen-Regiment soldiers.
Maybe we just have to clear the mistake if there is new evidence, Jens-Olaf's photo.
Here is a picture (postcard) from Huopalahti (Hoplax or Hoplaks in our second language, Swedish) station area from 1910. I found this just a few days ago. I think it is not the same place.
So if not Huopalahti. Where was the picture taken?
Both these pictures of German soldiers and the film together tell more about the scene than one picture alone. Let's name the key points of this puzzle, the things seen in these pictures.
a) There is a railroad and a ditch on the left side of the railroad
b) There are about 20 German soldiers, first running and then lying
c) The Germans have 4 machine guns
d) There are some villas on the right side of the railroad. The closer one is on the slope of the hill about 30 meters away from the tracks.
e) There is a sign saying "Ladugården" (Latokartano in Finnish) and Haltpunkt - Pysäkki (stop in two languages)
f) There is a switch and another track going right
g) There was at least one photographer (and most likely another man as cinematographer) on the sight.
Ok. So here are the facts I have find out.
The Ostsee Division landed on 3rd of April in Hanko, Finland. There are some pictures from that day. In one picture there is a cinematographer and troops landing. But someone, a photographer for sure, took the picture of the cinematographer and the German troops.
Germans advanced from Hanko through traintracks towards Helsinki. When they arrived to Espoo area just next to Helsinki, von der Goltz decided to send 3rd Garde-Ulanen-Regiment to the area of Tikkurila (North of Helsinki). The Regiment's main task was to cut the railroad traffic and stop the reds escaping or sending help to Helsinki. On 12th of April at 6am the 3rd Ulanen-Regiment launched an attack to the area of Tikkurila. Fought there against the red guards. At 4 pm the 5th squadron got orders to attack Malmi (2 km south from Tikkurila). Rittmeister Graf zu Solms-Baruth as their leader the 5th squadron made a suprise attack to Malmi. They met some minor resistance. There was a small fortification with caves and cannons on the Ormusmäki rock, east side of Malmi. The fortification is still there. There is also information that the 5th squadron used a machine gun on the hill. They shot through a cave door on the rock to make reds surrender.
I found a map of that area from the year 1934. That's 16 years after the war. Let's compare the map and the pictures with German troops. On the map there is Ormusmäki, there is a train line on the west side of the hill just beside the hill. On the same map there are markings of houses on the hill just like in the picture. Here is a closeup of Ormusmäki area. I added some things to mark things up.
There used to be quite a lot of villas for rental those days around Malmi. Nowadays there are only a few left. On the map the nearest villa to the tracks is almost exactly in the right position when compared to the pictures. And it gets even more interesting. There is also another line turning right, just like in the film/picture. That is the traintrack going round Ormusmäki hill all the way to Malmi graveyard (which happens to be in the old Latokartano estate area). That railroad was built there in 1888. And to clear things there was a railroad going through Malmi before that. So here is a list of the things that match in the pictures and the map.
1. a railroad with a switch
2. other railroad that is turning right
3. a small field between the house/hill and the railroad
4. a train stop nearby
5. some sort of electric line beside railroad
6. little further there is another villa
So I went to this location on foot with my camera. The place has changed a lot. After the civil war Malmi started to grow fast. Lots of industrial growth, factories, more train tracks etc.
There are only a few villas left from the early 20th century period. On the western slope of the Ormusmäki hill there is a big factory-type building nowadays. There is a road running between the hill and railroad. It's a bit difficult to declare that this is the place, just like that. But after a closer inspection you start to see quite strong similarities between the old pictures from 1918 and this place just about 100 meters away from Malmi station.
1. The angle of the hill is the same on the west side of Ormusmäki-hill as what we see in the photos.
2. The distances between the train tracks and the hill look similar.
3. And oh yes, the fortification is still there. At the moment it is covered with snow. Next summer I will check the place.
I also filmed a short clip from the opposite direction from the bridge
So it's just a theory. Some things look waterproof but, I can't be 100% sure yet. What do you guys think?
I'm now trying to find out more exact maps from 1918 (or around the year), photographs of the area, anything that would prove or disprove this theory.
This was quite interesting. A link to see the names, units and ranks of officers in the German Ostsee Division during the operation in Finland 1918.
And there is a book "Unter dem Stahlhelm" published in 1932. It is based on the German officer's war journals. There is quite exact information of Germans movements in Helsinki.
Some of the stuff has been translated in Finnish here:http://www.valt.helsinki.fi/projects/kmuisti/vantaa/%20helpit/saksa...
timonoko (2 months ago | reply)
The building in the back there is definitively the old Oulunkylä Railway Station. It has the chimney and the flagpole.
Oulunkylä is 3 kilometers to the south-west of Malmi.
This is the location now: [url]maps.google.com/maps?client=ubuntu&channe l=fs&q=o...[/url]
From here you can walk to the mysterious Ladugården just following the ancient Governor's Road (aka Maaherrantie aka Landshövdingsvägen).
Jens-Olaf (2 months ago | reply)
The logical conclusion: Ladugården was the actual stop. Though the settlements are a little distant. I also think the area is right and it is one of the mentioned stations. And the description in historical books seems to point into wrong directions.
This is Pasi's suggestion.
And here overlapping timonoko's:
Pasi 68 (2 months ago | reply)
Nice picture of the old Oulunkylä railway station! Designed by Granholm? He drew many many train stations at that period. And thanks for participating. This has been a very interesting journey so far. I've learned a lot. And this Oulunkylä-area is a totally new theory.
First, question to Timonoko. If the building in the back is the old railway station in Oulunkylä, from what point you think was the actual picture taken? South or north from the Oulunkylä station? The house in the back is approximately 400-500 meters away from the photographer. So this theory would suggest that there were two train stops very close to each other.
Jens-Olaf. I agree, we are close, the area must be right. But the Ladugården sign is still a bit mystery. I can't find any evidence that there was a stop named Ladugården/Latokartano.
The known train stops in the area are (from north to south):
Then back to historical and solid facts.
1918 there were red guard soldiers from Oulunkylä.
However I can't find any evidence of German Ostsee division operating around Oulunkylä area in those days. So we need more facts.
Regarding to the book "Unter dem Stahlhelm" German officers reported that after the surprise attack to Malmi the 5th Squadron returned to Helsingin Pitäjä (nowadays Vantaa/Vanda) which is couple of kilometers north from Malmi. Malmi was the turning point back to north.
Here is my free translation from Finnish:
"On 12th of April 1918 at 4pm the 5th Squadron was sent to Malmi with orders to make a surprise attack.
5th Squadron met resistance around northern parts of Malmi. Rittmeister/Cavalry captain, count zu Solms with his men started quickly fighting back. After a short gunfight the area of Malmi was cleared from red guards taken by storm. Four heavy cannons and 5 lighter cannons were captured from red troops. Before sunset the southern parts of Malmi and a near forest were cleared from enemies too. 5th Squadron kept their positions on Malmi that night and next morning.
13th of April before evening the Squadron was ordered to return to Helsinki Pitäjä area. 14th day everything was peaceful". So the Germans came from north to Malmi, stayed there for 24 hours and returned back to north. The operation to cut the main road and railroad from red guards was succesful.
My first thought is that the building in the back could be the old Oulunkylä Railway Station as Timonoko suggests. Similar profile. From Malmi (Malm) that's just too far away. Pukinmäki (Bocksbacka) which is between Malmi and Oulunkylä is also too damn far away. We have to remember that many of the villas were built close to the railways. We also have to remember that many of the villas and houses had similar characteristics. Especially Malmi (Malm), Oulunkylä (Åggelby), Pukinmäki (Bocksbacka) were the areas where they built a lot (several hundreds) of villas close to the railroads. The railroad was one reason to buy or rent a villa in the area. The villas were advertised as "relaxing and natural communities just 15 minutes away from Helsinki". Also, not so many know but the first train station in Malmi happened to be located a bit further to north from Ormusmäki. So the building in the back could be the first Malmi train station too. There is one villa left close to the railway track in Malmi. It looks quite similar to the closer building seen in our photos from 1918.
So back to Malmi theory. One more evidence. There is an old road named Ladugårdsvegen (Latokartanontie) going through Malmi, just about 100 meters away from the Malmi-theory point of photograper. The road leads straight to Ladugården/Latokartano area. This road was there then and it still is.
The name Ladugården truly haunts around and I think it is the real key to this mystery. If you ever can, go and see the Ormusmäki west slope it has lot sof similarities to the photos and it matches with the proven movements of German troops.
History of Ormusmäki fortification in Finnishormusmaki.tripod.com/historiaa.html
Other theories to investigate
1. the train track to Malmi graveyard
2. Pukinmäki station (Bocksbacka) (I don't know yet if the German troops were there)
timonoko (2 months ago | reply)
This would be the exact location of Jens-Olaf's picture close to Ormusmäki. At the moment there is also the ditch, visible in Jens-Olaf's second picture:
Unfortunately there is no such ditch close to any track in Malmi-Oggelby area in the old russian maps.
Pasi 68 (2 months ago | reply)
I found interesting info about the clip Timo shared with us.
The original film it's from has been found from the film archives of the former DDR.
The name: Deutsche Hilfe für Finnland.
One copy can be found from the Finnish Film Archives (Elokuva-arkisto).
I found this info from Sedis blog (it's in Finnish) sedis.blogspot.com/2005/09/vuoden-1918-kuvat. html.
He wrote about the films of Finnish civil war. He has seen the German film.
So I'm going to contact the blogger. Let's hope he can comment on our theories.
I believe that the answer to this mystery might be on the original film. We are getting closer.
And that's where the Flickr thread seems to have halted.......