Estonia's army in the 1920's and 30's

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Reigo
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#46

Post by Reigo » 11 Aug 2003, 14:56

do any of the coastal artillery fortresses still exist today, or did the russians wreck them when the soviet union collapsed?
Only ruins today. I believe the fortress was mostly destroyed during the Soviet retreat in 1941.
were the nobility in the baltics all germans? were there any estonian or latvian noble families?
They were mostly Germans. There were also Swedish, Danish, Russian noble families who lived here. At the beginning of 20th century there were no Latvian or Estonian noble families. It is believed that some of the noble families had Latvian or Estonian roots, but these families were Germanized centuries ago.

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Balrog
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#47

Post by Balrog » 11 Aug 2003, 18:57

thank you for all the information. the local university library only carries 4 books on the baltics, all of them dealing with the 1991 independence. this thread has provided me with much needed information.


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Hanski
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#48

Post by Hanski » 27 May 2004, 19:27

Balrog wrote:do any of the coastal artillery fortresses still exist today, or did the russians wreck them when the soviet union collapsed?
On the Finnish coast, there is still the Kuivasaari fortress with its museum 12" (305 mm) guns restored for ceremonial use, such as firing the salutes for the 85th anniversary of Finland's independence on 6 Dec 2002.

http://hyl.edu.hel.fi/sivut/Jarmo/suome ... tml#tokams

See also http://www.rt-kilta.net/galleria_kuivasaari.html

Hanski

ernesto che burasca
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#49

Post by ernesto che burasca » 12 Jun 2004, 16:29

Balrog:
i believe the country mussolini helped was latvia, i know he recieved the "order of the latvian bear slayer" decoration, he was one of less than a dozen people to ever receive this award.
Mussolini has the Estonian Cross of freedom as well III/1. Not for the military help but because of Italian diplomatic support to Estonia to join the League of Nations.
Docent P:
After their unsuccessful raid on Petrograd their returned to Estonia where the grateful Estonians put them into prison camps with conditions not rather better than in the later Stalin's GULAG.

Reigo:
There were no prison camps, but quarantine zones since the NW Army had massive typhus epidemy. Otherwise the epidemy would have spreaded all over the land. That the full army didn't eventually die in typhus is the result that the Estonian Army's medical service finally took the treatment over (most of the NW Armys medical corps died or were sick).

One point the Russian historians have seen as GULAGish is been the obligation to those not sick to work in the wood. The point here is that this was not something exclusively for Northwestern Army but because of the afterwar catastrophic situation with heating materials there was temporarily introduced such an obligation to the capable residents not involved in other more important activities. The Russian soldiers were not an exeption.

Balrog:
was the arrrested estonia president kept under house arrest in russia or was he left to die in a gulag?

Reigo:
He was kept under house arrest.
To be exact, not quite "house arrest". He's been taken to Russia and later kept in a house for mentally disabled. Of course better than prison, he survived longer than other leaders, but still ...

Balrog:
reading over the web links, it seems the soviets murdered almost the entire estonian government, officer corps, and viirtually anyone of any importance at all.

Well many survived, but true - many were murdered. The Soviet s didn't murder the entire officer corps - only the "bad" element there. Almost the entire general corps was murdered.

"Bad" element in the Soviet sense means potentially anyone who is been remarkably active in any other army than the Soviet one (as well as other party than Communist etc.). The principle was to destruct any potential alternative leadership. Only sometimes active collaboration with the Soviets could former civilian, NGO or military leaders avoid to be repressed. By the outrooking of the "not our" elements the Soviets started from the head, so higher staff first. That reason the share "bad" element discovered in the 1940/41 was so high by the higher officers while much less in lower ranks.


Balrog:
what became of the german land holders after the end of the war in the early 1920's?

Reigo:
Their land was mostly taken away with the landreform. So they had to conform with the new circumstances...
Could be a necessary addition, that a compensation was paid.

Reigo
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#50

Post by Reigo » 13 Jun 2004, 18:39

One point the Russian historians have seen as GULAGish is been the obligation to those not sick to work in the wood. The point here is that this was not something exclusively for Northwestern Army but because of the afterwar catastrophic situation with heating materials there was temporarily introduced such an obligation to the capable residents not involved in other more important activities. The Russian soldiers were not an exeption.
The topic is interesting, but badly researched. The truth seems to be that the pay was extremely low and the conditions of the workers weren't good. But where I can find proof that only the Russians weren't put to work?

Could be a necessary addition, that a compensation was paid.
IIRC the compensation for the land taken away from the Germans was at first very small. Later because of Germany's pressure it was increased, but still it wasn't too big.

ernesto che burasca
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#51

Post by ernesto che burasca » 06 Jul 2004, 14:32

1. Ant, Jüri "Eesti 1920. Iseseisvuse esimene rahuaasta." Tallinn, "Olion" 1990.

2. Amounts are always disputable, by any kind of forced nationalisations. It's still a different case than simply confiscation.

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David Lehmann
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#52

Post by David Lehmann » 04 Sep 2005, 07:33

Hello,

I just found this photo on the Internet http://www.rrg.edu.ee/~rainvaikla/ewarmee.html :
Image

Apparently it is from the Estonian army in 1936 ... never seen a Hotchkiss with such a sight before.

On the same page there are photos of Estonian FT17 tanks and apparently they used also Citroen-Kégresse halftracks (like France, Poland, Danemark etc.)

Image

Image

Regards,

David

Ñancul
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Re: estonia's army

#53

Post by Ñancul » 06 Mar 2008, 23:24

I am from Argentina, I find it very interesting these forums on the Baltic States between 1918 and 1940.
I am writing a book about these armed forces, and would be very useful assistance that I could provide.

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crolick
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Re:

#54

Post by crolick » 20 Aug 2008, 17:58

Juha Tompuri wrote:Interesting discussion!
Estonia and Finland had a secret defence alliance. At naval and coastal artillery defence the co-operation was deepest. The countries had a combined coastal artillery fire control system (the Finns could control Estonian artillery fire and visa versa). The Estonian subs were equipped with the same torpedo and mine "systems" as the Finnish ones. "Veljien Valtiosalaisuus" (State secret of Brothers) by Jari Leskinen even states that if hostilities between Finland and Estonia versus Soviet Union would broke out, Lembit and Kalev would be placed under Finnish high command.
Dear Juha,

could you please tell us a little bit more about this cooperation?! It seems very interesting.

BTW. Is it possible to post larger version of the attached image - I really can not distinguish any details there :wink:

Tony Fermor
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Re: estonia's army

#55

Post by Tony Fermor » 21 Aug 2008, 14:16

Hi

The only ones I have are these, they were taken near to Taevaskoja in southern Estonia in the 20's or 30's.

Image

Image

Image

Tony

Ñancul
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Re: estonia's army

#56

Post by Ñancul » 28 Oct 2009, 18:31

More information please

WilhelmII
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Re: estonia's army

#57

Post by WilhelmII » 22 Oct 2014, 21:25

Image

durb
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Re: estonia's army

#58

Post by durb » 14 Nov 2014, 17:52

How well and how long could Estonian army have fought against Soviet expansion in 1939? If Estonia had decent defence forces, why did it not use them at all?

There is already a thread regarding this question: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=68053 but it has dealt more the postwar resistance of "forest brothers".

Thinking what followed later in 1940 - the sovietization process, terror of NKVD, mass deportations etc. makes me feel that there was not much to lose if Estonian army would have fought against Soviet invasion in 1939. War lost perhaps, but so it was also by agreeing with Soviet demands and ultimately allowing an occupation that lasted about half a century. And the war swept over Estonia both in 1941 and 1944 - so horrors and devastations of war came to Estonia anyway. But of course the Estonian decision makers in 1939 did not know what we know now. Had they known, they probably would have chosen to fight despite all the unfavourable circumstances (having no effective backup of Germany or any other major European power).

In Finland there has been lot of debate if the fate of the country would have been exactly the same as that of Baltic countries if Finnish decision makers would have accepted the Soviet demands on October/November 1939. Finland chose to be stubborn and fought almost alone, lost but nevertheless remained independent and was never occupied by Soviets. But Finnish position was arguably stronger than that of the Estonia. Bigger army, more favourable terrain for defence etc.

andrus
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Re: estonia's army

#59

Post by andrus » 21 Nov 2014, 14:27

Durb, how is your estonian?

Heino Arumäe: Võrdlevalt Eesti-Nõukogude ja Soome-Nõukogude läbirääkimistest sügisel 1939 // Tuna 1/2006
http://www.arhiiv.ee/public/TUNA/Artikl ... 2006_1.pdf

durb
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Re: estonia's army

#60

Post by durb » 21 Nov 2014, 17:30

Thanks, I will look on Arumäe article with time and maybe comment after that. I can more or less read Estonian, but it demands lots of effort and being very careful with the context of words. A bit same as knowing Spanish and by that language base read texts in Italian or in French.

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