FINNISH Army in 1920s-1930s (organization, equipment)

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
Hosted by Juha Tompuri
Post Reply
User avatar
Harri
Member
Posts: 4230
Joined: 24 Jun 2002, 12:46
Location: Suomi - Finland

#31

Post by Harri » 19 Sep 2005, 18:58

JTV wrote:
BIGpanzer wrote:Do you have the info (would like to write the same escellent :wink: ) about other Finnish coastal defence batteries? At least the locations and armament of main of them - Finnish Baltic sea coasts at Gulf of Finland (Hamina, Kotka, Helsinki, Turku defence) and Gulf of Bothnia (Vaasa, Kokkola, Oulu defence), also defence of the Finnish side of Lake Ladoga. We already discussed the number and amount of Finnish regiments of coastal artillery here, but what about different batteries of those regiments or separate batteries?
Sorry, I don't have time for making lists about all of them. :(
I think I already earlier in this thread showed links to my Internet site which contains lists of Finnish coastal forts and batteries in 1939 - 1940 (also on Lake Ladoga) and 1941 - 1944 based on both Arimo's and Enqvist's books. See the first page of this thread.

User avatar
BIGpanzer
Member
Posts: 2812
Joined: 12 Dec 2004, 23:51
Location: Central Europe

#32

Post by BIGpanzer » 19 Sep 2005, 19:58

Thanks, Harri!
I know your excellent site and already checked it. Sorry for misunderstanding :wink:
But what I would like to know is Finnish coastal defense in 1920-1939: was it almost the same as you`ve described (your site covers the period 1939-1940, Winter War)? Me seems Finns built many new coastal batteries and fortifications in addition to old Russian, so Finnish coastal defense of 1922 should be different of Finnish coastal defense of 1938, for example. Am I right or not?

Sorry also for repeating my small question from yesterday post :)
As for the Aland Islands - just one question. It has nothing common with Finnish Army, but with Finnish history of 1920s. AFAIK Aland Islands were the part of Russian Grand Duchy of Finland since 17.09.1809 (so Finnish), but in 1918 they were occupied by Sweden (also popular movement to rejoin Sweden took place in 1917-1919) and by Germany. Only on 24 June 1921 League of Nations decided Aland Islands in favor of Finland. What happened between 1918-1921? Were Aland Islands already Finnish after Swedish/German occupation end in December 1918 or independent during that three years?
Thanks for clarifications, JTV!
Just one note:
JTV wrote: Sending whole tanks to Germany just to install gun sights would have not made any sense. The sights would have undoubtedly been installed in Finland
My sources report that the Vickers tanks were ordered unarmed from Vickers and the hulls were sent to Germany for fitting with optics. Probably, these sources are not correct.

As for the Finnish "Austin" armored car - yes, you are right! Photo shows British "Austin" III series (Russians ordered 60 such vehicles in August 1916 and they were delivered to St. Petersburg between February and summer 1917. Saw the action during Russian civil war. So Finns could get them for sure also from Russians). As for the "Austin-Putilov" - they had turrets placed diagonally, but their chassises were the same as of "Austin" the third series.
And I found the following in my sources: "Two "Austins" the 3rd series were sent by the Soviets in 1918 to help the Finnish Red Guards. They fell into the Finnish hands and served in the Finnish Army until the mid 1920's"

And some small questions about Finnish AFVs:
1. Finland bought 1 light tank Vickers-Carden-Loyd MkIV (another source - MkVI) in 1933 for testing and used it till 1941. Is the info correct?
2. Finnish renault FT17 with Hotchkiss MG - those MGs were changed in 1937 to Maxim`s MG. Is the info correct? If so - some changes in turret`s design should be made......
3. Note: I found the mention that Finland used 2 armored cars "Izhorsky-Fiat" (captured during the Civil war) till the 1920s.

Best regards and thanks for your attention, BIGpanzer

Map of Finland (1920-1939) before Winter War with Finnish access to Ladoga Lake (Finnish Karelia region) and Barents Sea (Petsamo regions)
is from http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/scandinavia
Image
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 22 Sep 2005, 20:56, edited 6 times in total.


Mikko H.
Member
Posts: 1665
Joined: 07 May 2003, 11:19
Location: Turku, Finland

#33

Post by Mikko H. » 19 Sep 2005, 20:48

As for the Aland Islands - just one question. It has nothing common with Finnish Army, but with Finnish history of 1920s. AFAIK Aland Islands were the part of Russian Grand Duchy of Finland since 17.09.1809 (so Finnish), but in 1918 they were occupied by Sweden (also popular movement to rejoin Sweden took place in 1917-1919) and by Germany. Only on 24 June 1921 League of Nations decided Aland Islands in favor of Finland. What happened between 1918-1921? Were Aland Islands already Finnish after Swedish/German occupation end in December 1918 or independent during that three years?
German forces withdrew from Finland by the end of 1918 and left the Ahvenanmaa Islands at the same time, leaving Finland in control.

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11562
Joined: 11 Sep 2002, 21:02
Location: Mylsä

#34

Post by Juha Tompuri » 19 Sep 2005, 22:32

BIGpanzer wrote:By the way, do you have exact info about the types and amount of the large-calibre (120mm-305mm) Finnish coastal guns of preWinter war period. Or it is impossible to find such info even in Finnish literature.........
Hi Bp,

Do you read Russian?
http://www.fortification.ru/library/amirkhanov/005.html (from: http://www.fortification.ru/library/amirkhanov/ )
http://www.wheretogo.km.ru/fortification.htm

also:
http://www.nortfort.ru/ino/index_e.html (from: http://www.nortfort.ru/index_e.html )

Regards, Juha

User avatar
BIGpanzer
Member
Posts: 2812
Joined: 12 Dec 2004, 23:51
Location: Central Europe

#35

Post by BIGpanzer » 19 Sep 2005, 23:01

Thanks, Mikko H. for the clarification the question about Aland Islands!
Thanks, Juha for the links! I can read Russian (sometimes with vocabulary) and a little bit understand it as I know Polish, as for Finnish - I can read it very slowly with good vocabulary in my hands only :) , as I don`t know it (tried to study the principles of grammar of Finnish language by myself several years ago :) )

Kiitos :wink:
Regards, BIGpanzer

PS. Could anybody help me with the old photos (modern from the Finnish museum it is possible to find quite many) of the main Finnish AFVs of the describing period - FT17 and Vickers 6-ton?
I found only these photos:
http://ofp.bombsquad.org/fww2/kuvat/ft17.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/finland/Vickers.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/finl ... tonMkE.jpg
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 19 Sep 2005, 23:22, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Harri
Member
Posts: 4230
Joined: 24 Jun 2002, 12:46
Location: Suomi - Finland

#36

Post by Harri » 19 Sep 2005, 23:20

BIGpanzer wrote:But what I would like to know is Finnish coastal defense in 1920-1939: was it almost the same as you`ve described (your site covers the period 1939-1940, Winter War)? Me seems Finns built many new coastal batteries and fortifications in addition to old Russian, so Finnish coastal defense of 1922 should be different of Finnish coastal defense of 1938, for example. Am I right or not?
You are right. Finns modernized ammunition, old fortifications and batteries decentralizing guns to new positions. Camouflaging and observing abilities were also improved. Basically the biggest changes took place on the eastern Gulf of Finland while the western batteries remained in old style open positions. Many of the Canet guns were "turned" thus improving their range.

Super heavy batteries were as follows:

There was originally one four gun 305 mm battery at Orö with four guns but it became combat ready in August 1930 now with two guns only. New 305 mm (12") batteries were completed during the 1930's (Mäkiluoto in 1933, Kuivasaari in 1934). The ones at Ristiniemi were completed just prior to the Winter War. There was also a rather strong fort at Ino on karelian Isthmus but it had been damaged in 1918 and gun positions were demolished in the early 1920's according to the Dorpat peace agreement.

254 mm (10") Durlacher batteries (with four guns) were at Isosaari (two batteries), Rysäkari, Kuivasaari, Katajaluoto and Villinki (= 24 guns). One battery at Lavansaari on the Gulf of Finland was dismantled due to Dorpat peace agreement of 1920 and its guns were moved to the not yet finished Saarenpää fort at Koivisto island. Battery was completed by August 1921. New 10" battery was built between 1925 and September 1929 at Kirkonmaa. Its four guns were taken from another battery of Isosaari. Before the Winter War two more guns were added.

The six 234 mm (9.2") Bethlehem guns were combat ready at Russarö around 1921/22. Guns were overhauled and improved (20 changes) between 1935 -1937.

In 1918 there were positions for two four gun batteries of 203 mm (8") Canet and Canet Vickers guns at Koö (without guns) and Boxo (one gun, three missing; second gun was assembled after 1918) but both batteries were discontinued early in the 1920's. Pukkio fort was completed in 1924 initially with two guns (later four). Two of these guns were moved to Mäkiluoto before the Winter War.

Maybe I should add this information to my coastal battery page?

----

Smaller calibre batteries are rather difficult to describe here. But I try to find some information. In my list of coastal batteries you can see which batteries underwent changes if there is mentioned "Decentralized". That means guns were placed to new positions. "Guns next to each others" means that guns are in old positions. In both cases gun models and their numbers may have been changed.

User avatar
JTV
Member
Posts: 2011
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 11:03
Location: Finland
Contact:

#37

Post by JTV » 20 Sep 2005, 10:55

BIGpanzer wrote:
My sources report that the Vickers tanks were ordered unarmed from Vickers and the hulls were sent to Germany for fitting with optics. Probably, these sources are not correct.
Hulls? Both the 37-mm gun and coaxial machinegun were in the turret. Also as the tank guns were to be manufactured in Finland. Finland had acquired license for manufacturing 37-mm Bofors, both Tampella and VTT (Valtion Tykkitehdas = State Artillery Factory) manufactured them. And in fact the guns used to arm the 13 (or so) Vickers 6 ton tanks during Winter War came from Valtion Tykkitehdas.
As for the Finnish "Austin" armored car - yes, you are right! Photo shows British "Austin" III series (Russians ordered 60 such vehicles in August 1916 and they were delivered to St. Petersburg between February and summer 1917. Saw the action during Russian civil war. So Finns could get them for sure also from Russians). As for the "Austin-Putilov" - they had turrets placed diagonally, but their chassises were the same as of "Austin" the third series.
And I found the following in my sources: "Two "Austins" the 3rd series were sent by the Soviets in 1918 to help the Finnish Red Guards. They fell into the Finnish hands and served in the Finnish Army until the mid 1920's"
I checked my sources. As mentioned there is no certain information about how many Austin armoured cars Finns captured. At least one was captured intact enough to be used later, but there is no certainty if there were more then one.
And some small questions about Finnish AFVs:
1. Finland bought 1 light tank Vickers-Carden-Loyd MkIV (another source - MkVI) in 1933 for testing and used it till 1941. Is the info correct?
It was Mk VI and the information is correct.
2. Finnish renault FT17 with Hotchkiss MG - those MGs were changed in 1937 to Maxim`s MG. Is the info correct? If so - some changes in turret`s design should be made......
No real visible outside changes in the turret. Except the different looking barrel. The Maxim-version used for this was air-cooled, presumably similar machinegun as used in Finnish M/31 antiaircraft-machineguns.
3. Note: I found the mention that Finland used 2 armored cars "Izhorsky-Fiat" (captured during the Civil war) till the 1920s.
Could be true. All I can say for certain is that there were at least two captured Fiat armoured cars in Finnish use. None of the books I have read tell exactly what their actual number was for certain.

User avatar
JTV
Member
Posts: 2011
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 11:03
Location: Finland
Contact:

#38

Post by JTV » 20 Sep 2005, 11:07

One especially important method used with certain coastal guns to increase range, but not mentioned seperately yet, was turning the guns upside down on their mounts. Some of the coastal gun designs (such as 152-mm Canet L/45, which was most common of heavy coastal guns in Finnish use) had recoil springs, which were originally below the guns breech and limited the guns elevation. Once the gun was turned upside down on its mount the recoil springs came on top of the gun and therefore the gun could achieve higher elevation - the higher elevation naturally resulting longer range. Anyway, this wasn't originally Finnish idea (we got it from other country who had done it already with some guns?), but it proved rather useful.

User avatar
Harri
Member
Posts: 4230
Joined: 24 Jun 2002, 12:46
Location: Suomi - Finland

#39

Post by Harri » 20 Sep 2005, 18:37

JTV wrote:One especially important method used with certain coastal guns to increase range, but not mentioned seperately yet, was turning the guns upside down on their mounts. Some of the coastal gun designs (such as 152-mm Canet L/45, which was most common of heavy coastal guns in Finnish use) had recoil springs, which were originally below the guns breech and limited the guns elevation. Once the gun was turned upside down on its mount the recoil springs came on top of the gun and therefore the gun could achieve higher elevation - the higher elevation naturally resulting longer range. Anyway, this wasn't originally Finnish idea (we got it from other country who had done it already with some guns?), but it proved rather useful.
Harri wrote:Many of the Canet guns were "turned" thus improving their range.
Or is the word "reversed" better in this context?

According to the mentioned book by Ove Enqvist (page 146) the idea was "introduced" in Finland by Col. Hedlund who had seen turned Canet guns in Russia (before 1918). The officer who was active in introducing improvements in coastl guns and their ammunition was Lt.Col. J. Rikama.

All canet guns were not similar because there were several different mount types. Different mounts made designations of Canet guns different:
152/45 C - basic model with high mount
152/45 CR - high coastal gun mount (rated best in Finland)
152/45 CLo - with a rare high Finnish Lokomo mount
152/45 CL - with a low ship mount
152/45 CMet - high coastal gun mount made by Russian PMZ (later LMZ) (rare but rated equal to CR in Finland)

About 70% of the 100 guns used in turn 1920/30 guns were with high and about 30% with low mount. On 1.12.1939 there were 95 152 mm Canet guns in use.

User avatar
BIGpanzer
Member
Posts: 2812
Joined: 12 Dec 2004, 23:51
Location: Central Europe

#40

Post by BIGpanzer » 20 Sep 2005, 21:35

Escellent info, thanks Finnish guys! :wink:

I a little bit understand the equipment and location of Finnish coastal defence batteries.
As for their organization - what I found in my sources (please, check the info!)


Finland had 1646 km of coastal line in 1920-1939.
In 1935-1939 Finnish coastal artillery consisted of 3 regiments (4 batteries each) and 2 independent sections. It was under the Naval Staff only in 1935-1939 (is the info correct?)
In 1929-1934 Finnish coastal artillery consisted of 1 Staff (location, please...), 3 regiments (1 supernumerary company and 2 groups of batteries each), independent group (5 batteries), 2 fixed AA batteries (location and armament, please...) and 1 school for NCOs (location...).
In 1924-1928 Finnish coastal artillery consisted of 1 Staff, 3 regiments (1 depot company and 3 groups of batteries each), 1 independent group (6 batteries). So Finland had more batteries in 1924-1928 than in 1929-1934?


Could anybody help me with the old photos of the main Finnish AFVs of the describing period - FT17 and Vickers 6-ton? 8O

User avatar
Harri
Member
Posts: 4230
Joined: 24 Jun 2002, 12:46
Location: Suomi - Finland

#41

Post by Harri » 20 Sep 2005, 22:27

BIGpanzer wrote:Finland had 1646 km of coastal line in 1920-1939. In 1935-1939 Finnish coastal artillery consisted of 3 regiments (4 batteries each) and 2 independent sections.
Actually Coastal Artillery Regiments (before the war abbreviation "RT") were composed of Coastal Artillery Battalions (Lsto). For example in the 1930's RT 1 was composed of HQ, Citadel (also equal to Coastal Artillery Battalion), I and II Coastal Artillery Battalion and a separate battery at Mäkiluoto. I think the organization of peace-time units was not fixed and some regiments were bigger ans some smaller. Independedent units were Coastal Artillery Battalions. They in turn were composed of Forts (fortified strongpoints, sometimes fortified islands) which had Batteries. Fort could have one or several batteries of all calibres.

Here are the names of the RT 1:
6.5.1918- Suomenlinnan Linnoitustykistö (Sl.Linn.tstö) (Suomenlinna Fortress Artillery)
16.9.1918- * Suomenlinnan Rannikkotykistöpataljoona (Sl.Rt.Patl.) (Suomenlinna Coastal Artillery Battalion)
1.1.1919- I Rannikkotykistöpataljoona (I Rt.Patl.) (I Coastal Artillery Battalion)
7.5.1919- Rannikkotykistörykmentti 1 (RT 1) (Coastal Artillery Battalion 1)
16.9.1939- Helsingin Lohko (He.Lo.) (Helsinki Sector)

* On 16.9 1918 Col. V. P. Nenosen in his order of the dat changed the name to "Suomenlinnan Rannikkotykistöpataljoona". Other similar Coastal Artillery Battalions were at Viipuri (later RT 2) and Sortavala (later RT 3). These three units formed Coastal Artillery Regiment which was led by Col. Nenonen at Suomenlinna (Helsinki).

The whole coastline was not fortified because there are areas not suitable for landings. The whole coast line was controlled by Coast Guard (naval part of Frontier Guard) and divided to "guard regions". The most powerful fortifications were Turku archipelago, between Hanko and Helsinki, Kotka - Hamina - eastern Bay of Viborg area, on western Karelian Isthmus and on Lake Ladoga. Other fortified areas were between Porvoo and Loviisa, at Pori, Uusikaupunki and Vaasa.
BIGpanzer wrote:It was under the Naval Staff only in 1935-1939 (is the info correct?)
In 1919 separate Navy Staff and Coastal Artillery Staff (I don't know if the name is correct) were joined together as Coastal Defence Staff (Rannikkopuolustuksen esikunta). Between 1923 - 1927 coastal defence was detached to three parts: Navy, Coastal Artillery and Naval Base [Sotasatama] (don't ask what the last one actually was). In 1927 coastal artillery and navy were joined together as a Naval Defence Staff which became Naval Forces Staff (in Helsinki all the time) in 1933. Also a long time Cormmander of the Naval Forces General Väinö Valve was an artillery officer.

I can't confirm your list of coaatal artillery units because I don't have any source books with me right now.
BIGpanzer wrote:So Finland had more batteries in 1924-1928 than in 1929-1934?
Probably so. Old Russian defences were created for the defence of Russian and St. Petersburg not for Finland so there had to be done certain changes. Some obsolete batteries and forts and all batteries of the so called "second line" (which consisted mainly of old short range mortars) were abandoned already since 1919 or their guns were moved to new places or fortifications (Russians had left numerous not finished fortifications in Finland). Increased ranges also effected on the needed numbers of batteries and guns.

In old Russian style all guns of the battery were in line next to each others and seldom with full protection. In Finnish style guns were decentralized so that the guns could fire in 360 degrees sectors (if possible). In a new Ristiniemi battery which was completed in 1939 305 mm armoured turrets were nearly 1 km away from eachothers. Guns could be placed inland and camouflaged because observation possibilities and indirect firing methods had been developed and improved. During the war Soviets could destroy a relatively low number of Finnish coastal guns. More guns were destroyed in barrel explosions or technical failures and by the Finns themselves when areas in Karelian Isthmus were abandoned.

User avatar
JTV
Member
Posts: 2011
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 11:03
Location: Finland
Contact:

#42

Post by JTV » 21 Sep 2005, 08:35

Harri wrote:
Or is the word "reversed" better in this context?
Yes, its a better term. :) Attached is photo showing recoil springs of reversed 152-mm (this particular gun seems to have low mount placed on concrete pilar). What I remember some changes had to be done for them (replace the original springs with stronger ones?) when this reversing-method was used.
Attachments
recoil_springs.jpg
recoil_springs.jpg (57.98 KiB) Viewed 3810 times
Last edited by JTV on 21 Sep 2005, 08:37, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
BIGpanzer
Member
Posts: 2812
Joined: 12 Dec 2004, 23:51
Location: Central Europe

#43

Post by BIGpanzer » 21 Sep 2005, 08:36

Hello, Harri!
Harri wrote:
Between 1923 - 1927 coastal defence was detached to three parts: Navy, Coastal Artillery and Naval Base [Sotasatama] (don't ask what the last one actually was).
OK, no problem, I am not asking :)
Harri wrote:
Old Russian defences were created for the defence of Russian and St. Petersburg not for Finland
Interesting, but as me seems Finland had some very important strategical naval bases in XIX-1917 also, as Helsinki (Helsingfors), Suomenlinna, etc. The Russian authorities rebuilt Helsinki, intending to turn it into a stylish modern capital along the lines of St. Petersburg and it was the political and cultural centre of the Grand Duchy of Finland, so should be defended also very well. Am I right?

User avatar
JTV
Member
Posts: 2011
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 11:03
Location: Finland
Contact:

#44

Post by JTV » 21 Sep 2005, 08:55

Harri wrote: Probably so. Old Russian defences were created for the defence of Russian and St. Petersburg not for Finland so there had to be done certain changes. Some obsolete batteries and forts and all batteries of the so called "second line" (which consisted mainly of old short range mortars) were abandoned already since 1919 or their guns were moved to new places or fortifications (Russians had left numerous not finished fortifications in Finland). Increased ranges also effected on the needed numbers of batteries and guns.
Just small note: The coastal mortars were actually minority among the weaponry of the 2nd coastal line of "Krepost Sveaborg" (Russian WW1-era coastal and land fortifications around Helsinki). There doesn't seem to have been many of them to begin with and and some if not all were located to land front of this fortication. The 2nd line had mostly 229-mm and 279-mm coastal guns model 1867 and 1877, however its correct to say these guns were very much outdated by World War 1 (which indeed was partly because of their short range).

Some links about "Krepost Sveaborg" (I am sure if these have been around already):
http://www.novision.fi/viapori/
http://www.silentwall.com/Viapori.html

User avatar
Harri
Member
Posts: 4230
Joined: 24 Jun 2002, 12:46
Location: Suomi - Finland

#45

Post by Harri » 21 Sep 2005, 17:13

BIGpanzer wrote:
Harri wrote:Old Russian defences were created for the defence of Russian and St. Petersburg not for Finland
Interesting, but as me seems Finland had some very important strategical naval bases in XIX-1917 also, as
Helsinki (Helsingfors), Suomenlinna, etc.
I meant Russian fortifications were to protect Gulf of Finland against the attack from the west. Finland expected attack mainly from the east or south (from USSR). During the WW I Helsinki was the main base of the Russian Baltic Sea Navy.
BIGpanzer wrote:The Russian authorities rebuilt Helsinki, intending to turn it into a stylish modern capital along the lines of St. Petersburg and it was the political and cultural centre of the Grand Duchy of Finland, so should be defended also very well. Am I right?
Actually Finns built Helsinki because Finland was an autonomous state. Russia although funded many targets, especially the military ones. They were also constructed by Russian soldiers together with Finnish prisoners and workers.

Post Reply

Return to “Winter War & Continuation War”