FINNISH Army in 1920s-1930s (organization, equipment)

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
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#46

Post by Juha Tompuri » 21 Sep 2005, 23:55

Harri wrote:I meant Russian fortifications were to protect Gulf of Finland against the attack from the west.
http://www.novision.fi/viapori/

Coastal fortresses in Gulf of Finland and Northern Baltic in 1917
Image

http://www.novision.fi/viapori/erannikkokartta.htm ( Russian coastal fortresses in Gulf of Finland and northern Baltic 1917. Note! At this time Finland and Estonia still belong to Russia. Dots are batteries and arches are approximate firing sectors. (Some batteries firing sectors and ranges are unknown, then sectors are drawn roughly estimate). Small caliber cannons and anti-aircraft guns are excluding the map. You can zoom the map (at the link, JT) to bigger scales.)

Regards, Juha

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#47

Post by BIGpanzer » 22 Sep 2005, 10:04

Interesting, do you have such excellent picture 8O for the whole Finland (with Lake Ladoga and Gulf of Bothnia coastal defence) of interwar period 8) 8) :) I even afraid to hope :wink:


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#48

Post by BIGpanzer » 22 Sep 2005, 20:34

Can anybody help me with the photos of Finnish tanks (FT17 and Vickers 6-ton, especially the first one)?

The best I could find is the following: http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/finland/Vickers.jpg - quite well known photo, but as me seems from Winter or Continuation war period (different sources give different periods, also I found several mentions that this is T-26, not Vickers). Note the Soviet tank helmets - they, probably, also appeared in Finnish Army during/after Winter war.

Please, help me also with any info about Finnish tank markings during the 1920-1939. I only know from the photos that tanks also used blue swastika ("Hakaristi") on the sides. When was "Hakaristi" adopted in Finnish tank units (in 1919 or early 1920s or later)?

I found today the following info about Finnish Frontier Guard:
"After the Finnish Civil War in 1919, the control of the Finnish borders was given to the frontier troops under the command of the Ministry of Interior. Until 1945, only the Russian border was supervised by the Frontier Guard, the Swedish and Norwegian borders having only customs control. In 1929, a separate Sea Guard was founded to prevent the rampant alcohol smuggling caused by the Finnish abolition. At the start of the Winter War there were nine Frontier Companies (Rajakomppania) on the Karelian Isthmus. North of Lake Ladoga the Frontier Guards were combined into six Detached Battalions (Erillinen pataljoona). Further north in Petsamo the defence was left to the 10th Detached Company (10. Erillinen komppania), and there were only a few Finnish troops in the Salla area (Lapland) at the start of the war - the 17th Separate Battalion (Er.P 17) or the "Salla Battalion" was mobilized before the war from a company of the Frontier Guard". Is the info correct?

Also "Finland had 536 km of land frontiers with Sweden, 913 with Norway and 1590 with USSR in 1920s-1930s. Finnish Frontier Guard consisted in 1930s of four independent battalions, divided into companies and sections. The cadres of Coastguards were formed by naval officers and petty officers. There were 200 customs officers in Finland, who cooperated with Frontier Guard."
What was the amount of Finnish Frontier Guard and Coast Guard? What was the organization of the last one?


Regards, BIGpanzer
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 22 Sep 2005, 22:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Harri
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#49

Post by Harri » 22 Sep 2005, 22:25

Here is some information on Coastal Artillery Regiment 2 (RT 2) which defended eastern Gulf of Finland. It is based on the booklet "Kymen vartio No. 12 / 24.2.1995" titled "Rannikon puolustus" [Defence of the Coast], publication of "Tradition Association of Kymi Military District". There is an article "Itäisen Suomenlahden rannikkopuolustuksen vaiheita" [Phases of the Coastal Defence of the Eastern Gulf of Finland] by Lt.Col. U. Tirronen.

RT 2:
8.5.1918- 2. Raskas Tykistöpatteri (2nd Heavy Artillery Battalion)
...("several changes")
4.1919- Rannikkotykistörykmentti 2 (Coastal Artillery Regiment 2) - HQ at Viborg (Viipuri)
I Patteristo (I Artillery Battalion) at Kymi valley
II Patteristo (II Artillery Battalion) at Bay of Viborg
III Patteristo (III Artillery Battalion) at Koivisto

In 1923 heavy and super heavy batteries of RT 2 were on the following forts:
Rankki (5 or 6 - 152/45 C)
Kirkonmaa (254/45 D super heavy battery under planning)
Kilpisaari (heavy Battery)
Pukkio (4 - 203/45 C)
Tuppura (4 - 152/45 C, also another heavy battery)
Ravansaari (2 or 4 - 152/45 C)
Härkölä (2 or 4 - 152/45 C)
Saarenpää (6 - 254/45 D)
Humaljoki (2 or 4 - 152/45 C, 4 - 152/35 Mk)

In 1934 I Artillery Battalion became 2nd Separate Coastal Artillery Battalion (2.Er.Rt.Psto) directly under the command of Naval Forces.

On RT 2 there are two sources (I don't have them):
Uolevi Tirronen - Kotkan Rannikkopatteristo 1918 - 1993 (Kotka Coastal Artillery Battalion 1918 - 1993)
Teuvo Rönkkönen - Rannikkotykistörykmentti 2 1918 - 1940 Perustamisesta välirauhaan
(Coastal Artillery Regiment 2 1918 - 1940 From the Founding to the Interim Peace)

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#50

Post by Harri » 23 Sep 2005, 00:21

BIGpanzer wrote:The best I could find is the following: http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/finland/Vickers.jpg - quite well known photo, but as me seems from Winter or Continuation war period (different sources give different periods, also I found several mentions that this is T-26, not Vickers). Note the Soviet tank helmets - they, probably, also appeared in Finnish Army during/after Winter war.
I think this is one of the original Vickers (designation after the Winter War T-26E) tank in Viborg in June 1944. Vehicle number 521 means that it is a tank #1 of II Platoon / 5th Armoured Company / II Armoured Battalion. Numbers are red and the tank is in three tone camouflage painting intriduced in tanks in spring 1943. AFAIK Soviet tank helmets were introduced after the Winter War.
BIGpanzer wrote:Please, help me also with any info about Finnish tank markings during the 1920-1939. I only know from the photos that tanks also used blue swastika ("Hakaristi") on the sides. When was "Hakaristi" adopted in Finnish tank units (in 1919 or early 1920s or later)?
Black Swastika emblem was introduced in June 1941. Only temporary Armoured Detachment / 1st Division led by legendary 2Lt./Lt. L. Törni (later US Capt. Larry Thorne) used blue swastika emblems with long arm ends. The official swastika emblem was all the time black with short arm ends although at the begining of the Continuation War long arm ends were common.

During the Winter War Finnish national emblem in tanks was white - blue - white stripes around the tank turret. Before the Winter War Finnish tanks didn't have any national emblems.

Renault F.T.17 tanks had either Sand Brown / Mid-Brown / Green / (and additionally Black in some tanks) finish or were painted in overall Field Grey. Vickers-Armstrong 6 ton tanks were painted in Standard British Green (which was probably British Middle Bronze Green). Finnish standard colour before April 1943 was the above mentioned Field Grey (which actually was Very Dark Green / Drab). Captured repaired Soviet tanks were in most cases re-painted in Finland with this colour but there were also tanks with Soviet Dark Green (two main tones). Winter camouflage was White irregular stripes and patterns over basic camouflage.
BIGpanzer wrote:I found today the following info about Finnish Frontier Guard:
"After the Finnish Civil War in 1919, the control of the Finnish borders was given to the frontier troops under the command of the Ministry of Interior. Until 1945, only the Russian border was supervised by the Frontier Guard, the Swedish and Norwegian borders having only customs control. In 1929, a separate Sea Guard was founded to prevent the rampant alcohol smuggling caused by the Finnish abolition. At the start of the Winter War there were nine Frontier Companies (Rajakomppania) on the Karelian Isthmus. North of Lake Ladoga the Frontier Guards were combined into six Detached Battalions (Erillinen pataljoona). Further north in Petsamo the defence was left to the 10th Detached Company (10. Erillinen komppania), and there were only a few Finnish troops in the Salla area (Lapland) at the start of the war - the 17th Separate Battalion (Er.P 17) or the "Salla Battalion" was mobilized before the war from a company of the Frontier Guard". Is the info correct?
I think borders of Sweden and Norway were mainly not supervised by the Frontier Guard although there was some time a unit called IIRC West Lapland Frontier Guard Battalion (after the Winter War?).

I think the correct translation for "Merivartiolaitos" is Coast Guard? It was organized on 25.4.1930. Part of the personnel and equipment (ships, boats, one aircraft) came from the Customs Administration.

There were 9 separate Frontier Guard Companies in Karelian Isthmus although they were called Separate Companies. Also Separate Battalion 3 (Erillinen pataljoona 3, Er.P 3) had one frontier company in Karelian Isthmus.

IIRC Frontier Guard battalions were at least Separate Battalion (Er.P) 8, 9, 10, 11 (Ilomantsi), 12, 13, 14 (Kuhmo), 15 (Suomussalmi), 16 (Kuusamo) and 17 (Salla). They all fought north from Lake Ladoga.
BIGpanzer wrote:Also "Finland had 536 km of land frontiers with Sweden, 913 with Norway and 1590 with USSR in 1920s-1930s. Finnish Frontier Guard consisted in 1930s of four independent battalions, divided into companies and sections. The cadres of Coastguards were formed by naval officers and petty officers. There were 200 customs officers in Finland, who cooperated with Frontier Guard."
Sounds correct but I can't confirm for sure.
BIGpanzer wrote:What was the amount of Finnish Frontier Guard and Coast Guard? What was the organization of the last one?
I don't have these figures right now but the paid personnel in Karelian Isthmus Frontier Guard in 1930 was 186 and in the summer 1939 363. Total strengt in the 1920's was perhaps not bigger than 1.000 and in the late 1930's about 2.000. (Nowadays its strength [paid personnel] is about 3.000.) I don't know the numbers of conscripts. I think they were earlier used also in guard duties (unlike after the war when conscript were only trained for guerrilla warfare).

Coast Guard:

Gulf of Finland Coast Guard District (also on Lake Ladoga) had 24 ships and 37 boats. There were nine Coast Guard Stations [merivartioasemia].

Gulf of Bothnia Coast Guard District had (early 1930's) four Coast Guard Stations (Kummelgrund, Mässkär, Vallgrund ja Gåshällan), in 1935 11 ships, since 1932 Junkers F-13 (LK 3) aircraft at Vaasa.

Turku and Åland Islands Coast Guard District
in 1936 divided into:
Åland Islands Coast Guard District
Turku Coast Guard District

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#51

Post by JTV » 23 Sep 2005, 07:21

BIGpanzer wrote:Can anybody help me with the photos of Finnish tanks (FT17 and Vickers 6-ton, especially the first one)?
Sent me PM containing your email-adress and I can sent you some scanned period photos by email. Lot of the period photos are so called SA-photos (copyrights owned by Finnish military and reinforced rather vigorously).

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#52

Post by JTV » 23 Sep 2005, 08:17

Harri wrote:
I think this is one of the original Vickers (designation after the Winter War T-26E) tank in Viborg in June 1944. Vehicle number 521 means that it is a tank #1 of II Platoon / 5th Armoured Company / II Armoured Battalion. Numbers are red and the tank is in three tone camouflage painting intriduced in tanks in spring 1943. AFAIK Soviet tank helmets were introduced after the Winter War.

Yes, its T-26E (easy to identify from the turret shape), basically T-26E (in this case E = Englantilainen = English) was Vickers 6 ton tank Alt B Type E (or F for some) with its turret rearmed with captured Soviet 45-mm tank gun and coaxial DT machinegun.

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#53

Post by Harri » 23 Sep 2005, 19:28

JTV wrote:
Harri wrote:I think this is one of the original Vickers (designation after the Winter War T-26E) tank in Viborg in June 1944. Vehicle number 521 means that it is a tank #1 of II Platoon / 5th Armoured Company / II Armoured Battalion. Numbers are red and the tank is in three tone camouflage painting intriduced in tanks in spring 1943. AFAIK Soviet tank helmets were introduced after the Winter War.
Yes, its T-26E (easy to identify from the turret shape), basically T-26E (in this case E = Englantilainen = English) was Vickers 6 ton tank Alt B Type E (or F for some) with its turret rearmed with captured Soviet 45-mm tank gun and coaxial DT machinegun.
There was also 9 mm m/31 Suomi tank SMG in front hull plate. This particular photo was taken on 18.6.1944.

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#54

Post by BIGpanzer » 24 Sep 2005, 18:55

Thanks for the clarification with Finnish tanks!

Some additional info about Finnish airplanes (imported in 1920s-1930s) I found (mainly for myself as I don`t know quite many about Finnish aviation of 1930s :wink: , but the info will be interesting for other not-Finnish forummembers here also, as I hope):

1. In 1920s Finns used 8 Czech light bombers/reconnaissance biplanes Aero A-11HS, in 1929 they were replaced with more modern Aero A-32, equipped with French-produced Bristol Jupiter IV engines. Sixteen (AEj-49 - AEj-64) Aero A-32 were bought and used by Finnish Air Force till 1944 (as Aero A-32GR). In 1930 Finns unsuccessfully tried to replace Bristol Jupiter IV engines with Italian Isotta Fraschini Asso Caccia. In 1939 10 A-32GR were still in service.

2. French bomber/reconnaissance biplanes Breguet Br.XIV formed the backbone of Finnish Aviation Forces for several years (1920-1927). Finland acquired 20 Breguet 14 A2 aircraft in 1919 and also over two hundred (221) used Fiat A-12bis engines from French surplus stock. The first 4 aircraft arrived to Finland in July 1919, in 1921 ten more aircraft were bought, followed by 8 next year. So Finns used 38 airplanes of this type.
See http://kotisivu.mtv3.fi/skoiv/Avhist/Br ... guet14.htm for details

3. One of the most famous and powerful foreign airplanes in Finnish service was British two-engine medium bomber Bristol Blenheim I, 18 were bought in June 1937-July 1938. Those bombers for Finland had special suspensions for Swedish and American bombs, and was equipped with obsolete radiostations Marconi R-12/R-14. In April 1938 Finland bought a licence for the Blenheim native production at the new State air factory in Tampere, but there was no production till 1941.
Those Blenheims (tactical numbers BL-104 - BL-121) were used very widely during the Winter War as bombers, but more often as reconnaissance planes. Finnish engineers reequipped the bombers with the skis and special heated cowling for propellers. On 30 November 1939 Finland had two squadrons of Blenheims (9 in LeLv 44 and 8 in LeLv 46) as the part of the 4th regiment (LeR 4) in Luonetjärvi.
Some examples: On 1 December 1939 three Blenheims from LeLv 46 bombed Soviet tanks and trucks at Tsalki and one Blenheim was brought down by AA fire. The first air combat took place on 14 December 1939 when single Finnish Blenheim (BL-105) successfully could avoid the damage from the two attacks of 3 Soviet I-153 and disappeared in winter fog, using full speed........... On 20 December 1939 three Blenheims from Lelv 46 bombed Soviet artillery units on their way to the front at Saamajärvi-Tulemajärvi and detected several Soviet attacking I-16 very late. All three bombers were heavily damaged, but could reach their airfields with the help of cloudy weather. One I-16 was brought down (by the tail gunner of sergeant Morski`s bomber). Blenheims were quite vulnerable for AA fire, and on 24 December 1939 LeLv 44 had only 3 Blenheims (from 9 on 30 November 1939) - 4 were brought down by AA fire and 2 were heavily damaged.

4. Also British biplane fighters Bristol Bulldog IVA were used very widely by Finnish Air Force in 1935-1944, 17 were delivered (BU-59 - BU-75). Finnish order was the last for Bristol company, then the production of Bulldog fighters came to end. Finland received two Bulldogs Mk.IIa from Sweden as advanced training fighters in the end of 1939 also (which were received on 15 December 1939, and coded BU-214 and BU-216). The Swedish Air Force called the Bulldog for J7 (J=jaktflygplan which means fighter) and used twelve between 1931 and 1940.). Finnish Bulldogs (MkIVa) were equipped with Bristol Mercury VIS.2 engines, also some had skis. On 7 November 1938 the Finnish Bulldogs were transferred to LeLv 26 (based at Heinjoki) of Lentorykmentti 2 (2nd Flying Regiment). Those obsolete for 1939 fighters were used by Finnish pilots quite successfully during the first weeks of Winter War (LeLv 26 had 10 Bulldogs and since 6.12.1939 the squadron under the command of captain E. Heinilä fought with about 5 to 7 Bulldogs. The squadron moved on 6.12 to Mensuvaara and three days later on to Käkisalmi).

The first contact between Soviet aircraft and Finnish fighters happened on 1 December 1939 when 6 I-16s jumped a Bulldog pair of LeLv 26. While the other Bulldog got separated, BU-64 piloted by flight sergeant Toivo Uuttu was left alone to the combat. He could damage one I-16, but himself was also shot down and crashed at Muolaanjärvi. Damaged I-16 also crashed and became the first aerial victory over Finland.
On 23 December a patrol led by lieutenant Pentti Tevä took off on an interception mission towards Lake Ladoga, where it encountered 13 SB-2. Pentti Tevä and Lennart Mildh succeeded in downing one each of them.
On 25 December a formation of 40 SB-2 escorted by 12 I-16 approached to bombard Käkisalmi. A swarm of Heinilä’s Bulldogs took off in defence and shot down one I-16 while the bombers managed to escape.
On 28 December the detachment moved with 5 Bulldogs to Immola and on to Parola. On the last day of 1939, the unit moved to the ice-covered Lake Littoinen for protection of the city of Turku (Åbo) in Western Finland.


To be continued................
Also any notes/additional interesting info about the use of imported airplanes by Finnish Air Forces in 1920s-1930s are very welcome.

Thanks in advance, BIGpanzer

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#55

Post by BIGpanzer » 25 Sep 2005, 20:33

Also I am searching at the moment the info about organization of relatively small Finnish Air Force in 1920s - early 1930s. I found several sources but the info is very incomplete.

Could anybody help me with this? I need the info about organization of the Air Force and its changes during the interwar period (amount and numbers/names of the main units), also the location of the airfields in Finland....Is this a very hard to find info?


Regards, BIGpanzer

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#56

Post by Juha Tompuri » 25 Sep 2005, 22:19

BIGpanzer wrote:Interesting, do you have such excellent picture 8O for the whole Finland (with Lake Ladoga and Gulf of Bothnia coastal defence) of interwar period 8) 8) :) I even afraid to hope :wink:

:wink:
Image
Lake Ladoga stationary coastal artillery autumn 1939
http://www.mil.fi/merivoimat/joukot/smmepa/historia.dsp

Regards, Juha

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#57

Post by Harri » 25 Sep 2005, 23:29

These were at least since 30.12.1939:
Never heard of designation "75-Z". In my files South Battery of Konevitsa Fort had 2 - 75/50 CR.
Also is it Murikko or Murikka? In my files there is also an alternate name Murikanlahti. (Could be also my mistake...) There should be 3 - 75/50 M (M = Meller [mount], AA version of 75/50 O).
At Kivisalmi Harbour 1 - 75/50 M
At Kurkijoki (Kurkiniemi) was a movable battery of 2 - 152 K/04
Kelppä Fort guns missing: 2 - 120/45 C, 2 - 75/50 CR

There were also numerous light batteries ariund the coats. See from my Internet site, this page will be updated soon (Coastal Defence in Winter War 1939 - 1940 / Naval Defence of Lake Ladoga (Laatokan Meripuolustus, LMe.P).

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#58

Post by BIGpanzer » 26 Sep 2005, 12:22

Excellent map, thanks!

I remember my trip to Russian St. Petersburg for the scientific conference. Year...Probably, early autumn 1993......
Russian scientists invited several foreign colleagues, including me, for the trip to Karelia for several days after the conference on their own cars. We made the way from St. Petersburg to Sortavala and Kurkijoki, and then lived two days at Sortavala. The weather and nature was wonderful. What I remember from the military history - there were several monuments to Russian soldiers and civil defence units, died there in 1941 and 1944; in Sortavala there was also the monument (stone sross) to Finnish soldiers, died in 1939/1940. Near Kurkijoki there was a big stone Finnish barracks (2 or 3 floors) of Winter war period in excellent condition, even with windows. Russians said that barracks never used for living during the period after the war, but it was planned to make a good hotel from it for the foreign tourists (by the way I saw a huge amount of Finnish tourists in Karelia). The most interesting thing I found was the large old Finnish bunker (made from stone blocks and cement, 2 floors inside and open platform for the medium calibre gun on the top). That bunker located on uninhabited small island on Ladoga Lake (we made a small trip there on motor boat), and even beds, wash basins and armored doors were still in quite good condition, but already all things became rusty, some were broken. I suppose that was Ristisaari or very closely islands according to Juha`s map. Unfortunately, I forgot to take my camera that time to make photos :(

BIGpanzer

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#59

Post by BIGpanzer » 26 Sep 2005, 22:49

By the way, we need the Gulf of Bothnia Finnish coastal defence picture to finish the theme :)

PS I found also the Internet page about the Finnish Navy of preWWII-WWII period - http://users.tkk.fi/~jaromaa/Navygallery/
Excellent site with the huge amount of old photos and info (technical and historical) 8)

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#60

Post by Juha Tompuri » 28 Sep 2005, 00:19

Harri wrote: Never heard of designation "75-Z"
I think you have.
The map (most probably) is from the book: Rannikkotykistörykmentti 3 toimi täällä - Pohjoisen Laatokan maisemia vuonna 2001 by Erkki Marttila. http://www.geocities.com/finnmilpge/fmp_sources.html
75-Z (Z = Zenit = AAA), Zenit, Zenit-Meller and MI (I = ilmatorjunta = AA) designations AFAIK all indicate the same type of gun. All designations being pre-War era.
In my files South Battery of Konevitsa Fort had 2 - 75/50 CR.
AFAIK the CR designation is a post-War era. During the wars (and before ?) the R ( Rannikko = Coastal) wasn't (officially) used.
Also is it Murikko or Murikka? In my files there is also an alternate name Murikanlahti. (Could be also my mistake...)
I've seen all of them being used.
There should be 3 - 75/50 M (M = Meller [mount], AA version of 75/50 O).
What's your source for three guns?
Not all 75/50 M mounts were AA mounts.
At Kivisalmi Harbour 1 - 75/50 M
An AA mount, yes.
At Kurkijoki (Kurkiniemi) was a movable battery of 2 - 152 K/04
Movable, yes.
Kelppä Fort guns missing: 2 - 120/45 C, 2 - 75/50 CR
The 75mm gun "range circle" is there at the map, the gun designation is missing.
When the 120mm guns became operational? The guns were there (at boats?). At Arimo book there is no mention of them at the list of guns there on 10th Nov-39

Regards, Juha

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