FINNISH Army in 1920s-1930s (organization, equipment)

[BIGpanzer]

Very readable, dear Harri! I am reading..........

[BIGpanzer]

Just tried to find some info about French monoplane fighters Gourdou-Leseurre GL-21 C.1 (GL-21 B.2 and GL-22 B.3) in Finnish service. Finland bought and used 19-20 fighters in 1923-1931 and was the main consumer of that type of fighters.

And I found the list.......(from Keski-Suomen Ilmailumuseo):
http://www.k-silmailumuseo.fi/?action=a ... YHMA=7&ID=

Also about Finnish aircraft markings 1918-1939:
http://kotisivu.mtv3.fi/skoiv/Avhist/Milacmar.htm

[Harri]

And I found the list.......(from Keski-Suomen Ilmailumuseo):
http://www.k-silmailumuseo.fi/?action=a ... YHMA=7&ID=

Yes, there is one restored Gourdou-Leseurre left in that aviation museum. The plane is very rare and this one is without doubt one of the real "pearls" among the many rare planes in museums in Finland. Actually there is also one full Bristol Bullldog IVA in Finland but AFAIK it is not restored.

The latest project in Central Finland Aviation Museum is currently is the restoring of the world's only genuine Bristol Blenheim Mk. IV (although Finnish made of Jugoslavian parts) from the year 1944. Other "Blenheims" elsewhere are actually Canadian Bolingbrokes.

Anyway an interesting link!

[BIGpanzer]

Harri, thanks a lot for your info about the equipment and organization of Finnish Air Force. Excellent! I only don`t understand for sure what does mean "Aviation Station" (LA)? Airfield for 1-several squadrons (LLv) or more higher unit (as regiment or smth like this)?

As for the location of the Finnish airfields in 1920s-1930s: were they almost the same as during the Winter War or not? (probably, many new were built...). Do you know something about the location of Finnish airfields before Winter War?

Regards, BIGpanzer

[Harri]

Harri, thanks a lot for your info about the equipment and organization of Finnish Air Force. Excellent! I only don`t understand for sure what does mean "Aviation Station" (LA)? Airfield for 1-several squadrons (LLv) or more higher unit (as regiment or smth like this)?

Flying Regiments and Separate Squadrons (I think they had bigger HQ than a normal squadron) were called like that for a while between 1933 - 1938. The better translation of "Lentoasema" (abbreviation LA also LAs.) is "Airport" or "Aerodrome" and also "Airbase".

More about translations:
"Eskaaderi" = literally Squadron and also Fleet (equal to Flying Regiment)
"Laivue" or "Lentolaivue" = literally Squadron or Flying Squadron


This is the short "full history" of the Flying Regiment 2 (by Atso Haapanen, page 243):

- Hermanni Airbase [Hermannin lentoasema] established in 1918 at Helsinki

-> Flying Detachment 2 [Lento-osasto 2] since 1.8.1918, moved from Helsinki to Santahamina (at Helsinki too) on 1.10.1918

-> Aviation Detachment 2 [Ilmailuosasto 2] since 14.3.1919, moved from Santahamina to Utti on 1.7.1919

-> Aviation Detachment 1 [Ilmailuosasto 1] since 1.4.1921, since 1.1.1922 with
--- Combat Squadron [Taistelulaivue], since 23.6.1923 Fighter Squadron [Hävittäjälaivue] and
--- Tiedustelulaivue [Reconnaisance Squadron]

-> Fighter Fleet [Hävittäjäeskaaderi] with three fighter squadrons and Land Reconnaissance Squadron [Maatiedustelulaivue] since 1.3.1924

-> Land Flying Fleet [Maalentoeskaaderi] since 1.4.1926 with
--- Fighter Squadron and
--- Reconnaissance Squadron

-> Airbase 1 [Lentoasema 1] since 15.7.1933 with
--- Fighter Squadron (since 10.10.1934 LLv.24) and
--- Reconnaissance Squadron (since 10.10.1934 LLv.10)

-> Flying Regiment 2 [Lentorykmentti 2] since 1.1.1938 with
--- LLv.26
--- LLv.24

As can be sen Airbases were renamed as Flying Regiments (and Separate Squadrons) in 1938 when Finnish Air Force was largely reorganized.

As for the location of the Finnish airfields in 1920s-1930s: were they almost the same as during the Winter War or not? (probably, many new were built...). Do you know something about the location of Finnish airfields before Winter War?

Actually I do. I'm collecting a full list (with a map) of all Finnish airfields used between 1939 - 1945 but it is not quite ready yet. Here is the list of airfields based on Atso Haapanen's books:

"Airfields" in Finland in 1919

Santahamina (Helsinki)
Lappeenranta
Utti
Perkjärvi

Maritime airbases:
Hermanni (Helsinki)
Turku
Viipuri
Koivisto

Smaller maritime aircraft bases:
Sortavala
Salmi


Military Airfields in Finland in 1936

Utti
Kaukjärvi
Santahamina
Kauhava
Laajalahti (Kokkola)
Ravikangas (Heinjoki)
Suur-Merijoki
Käkisalmi
Sakkola
Römpötti
Immola
Puumala
Paakkola
Siikakangas

Under construction:
Joroinen
Suistamo
Karvia

Under planning (-> name used later):
Vierumäki (-> Vesivehmaa)
Joensuu (-> Onttola)
Alajärvi (-> Menkijärvi, also called Mänkijärvi)
Lappeenranta (original "airfield" was only an old cavalry training field)
Mensuvaara (Uukuniemi, also Mensunkangas)
Jyväskylä (-> Luonetjärvi)


Civilian airfields in Finland in 1936

Turku (Artukainen)
Tampere (Härmälä)

Under construction:
Helsinki (Malmi)
Mikkeli
Oulu
Vaasa (Mustasaari)


This list is not quite complete and by 1939 there were nearly the double amount of airfields in use. There were numerous temporary airbases during the Winter War. They were on frozen lakes usually rather close to some "real" airbases.

Here is the "Utti Airbase" page (fortunately only in Finnish) which contains some photos and a map of airfields in South-East Finland.:
http://personal.inet.fi/yhdistys/kymenl ... ikohta.htm

----

Did you see that page (with pictures) on Breguet under resotration?
http://www.k-silmailumuseo.fi/?action=juttu&ID=10

[BIGpanzer]

Thanks a lot as always, Harri!
A very interesting info about Finnish Flying Regiment 2 and the list of Finnish airfields of preWWII-period is also very useful.

As for the link - I like this phrase:

Harri wrote: Here is the "Utti Airbase" page (fortunately only in Finnish)

Fortunately for you, for me - unfortunately, as I don`t know Finnish and its quite hard to translate Finnish texts with vocabulary (easier than Russian texts, but still hard)
But really interesting link and map

As for the preserved airplanes of the described period (Liberation War - Winter War). Do you know this excellent page, by the way? This is one of my favourite (about preserved axis planes, I am giving the link to Finland):
http://www.preservedaxisaircraft.com/Fi ... innish.htm


Regards, BIGpanzer

[Harri]

Thanks a lot as always, Harri!
A very interesting info about Finnish Flying Regiment 2 and the list of Finnish airfields of preWWII-period is also very useful.

You're wellcome.

As for the link - I like this phrase:

Harri wrote: Here is the "Utti Airbase" page (fortunately only in Finnish)

Fortunately for you, for me - unfortunately, as I don`t know Finnish and its quite hard to translate Finnish texts with vocabulary (easier than Russian texts, but still hard)
But really interesting link and map

Oops... Well, actually fortunaly fits fine because I found there a few suspicious dates/years which differ from the above list given by Atso Haapanen in his book.

As for the preserved airplanes of the described period (Liberation War - Winter War). Do you know this excellent page, by the way? This is one of my favourite (about preserved axis planes, I am giving the link to Finland):
http://www.preservedaxisaircraft.com/Fi ... innish.htm

Actually I don't (or at least have not visited there for a very long time). Thanks for the link. I didn't know that the Bulldog has already been restored and in such a good condition. There are numerous planes or hulks which are waiting for restoration. The most I long for the Brester which was evacuated from Russian ans is not at Penascola, USA. That invaluable plane should be definately in Finland. Also the Curtiss Hawk 75A-6 hulk under restoration in New Zealand is interesting.

[BIGpanzer]

About preserved Brewster - please, see this Russian link: Brewster B-239 was raised in Karelia by Russian historical search party of military enthusiasts (I received this link several months ago from one of my Russian friend). The plane was brought down by four Soviet "Hurricanes" 25.06.1942. The pilot - Ltn. L.Pekuri survived.
http://www.trizna.ru/samolet/photo.htm
http://www.trizna.ru/samolet/photo2.htm
http://www.trizna.ru/samolet/photo3.htm

[BIGpanzer]

Some short info about maritime, ambulance, transport and communication Junkers K 43 (W 34) in Finnish Air Force.
Finland bought 1 Junkers W 34fa (single-engine 3 - 6 seater) from Germany and 6 of its military conversion (light bomber/reconnaissance) K 43fa from Sweden.The German W 34fa arrived on 30 September 1930 and Swedish F 43fas arrived on 9 April 1931.

Aircrafts had numbers JU-122 - JU-128 and the following units operated with them in 1930s: MeLE (1931), MeLAs (1931-33), 1. Er.MLL (1931-33), MLE (1933), KoeL (1933-37), LA 6 (1933-38 ), LA 2 (1933-38 ), Er.LLv (1938-39), LLv 16 (1938-40).

Also in the 1930's Finnish Coast Guard received 3 Junkers F 13fe aircraft (single-engine 2 + 4-5 seater) for liaison and transport duties.

[BIGpanzer]

As I`ve mention in the list of Finnish aircrafts somewhere above Finland used Levy GL.40HB2 Type R (1919-1923, 12 copies). Does somebody know any info about the service of that aircraft in young Finnish Air Force? Also any info about that plane is also very welcome as I know very few about such plane of French construction (this is a single engine biplane flying boat).

Thanks in advance, BIGpanzer

[BIGpanzer]

Nobody knows? It`s a pity............
In fact it is extremelly hard to find any info about the use of foreign-built aircrafts in Finnish Air Force in 1920s, at least the list of the units which used the specific model of the aircraft.

For example - British biplane fighter Martinsyde F.4 Buzzard (Finland acquired 1 in 1923 and 14 in 1927). Thanks to Harri (see his data for 1934 above) - LA 1 still used 4 Buzzards and Ilm.K used also Buzzards (unknown amount, probably air fighting schools used Buzzards till 1939). But I couldn`t find data for 1928 for all 15 Buzzards.............They had MA-.. aircraft marking code since 1927 - see http://www.virtualpilots.fi/en/hist/WW2 ... d=feedback

Any help with Martinsyde F.4 Buzzard in Finnish Air Force, please!...............

[Harri]

As I`ve mention in the list of Finnish aircrafts somewhere above Finland used Levy GL.40HB2 Type R (1919-1923, 12 copies). Does somebody know any info about the service of that aircraft in young Finnish Air Force? Also any info about that plane is also very welcome as I know very few about such plane of French construction (this is a single engine biplane flying boat).

Atso Haapanen mentions in his book that they were received summer 1919. The order consisted of 20 Breguet 14.A2 floatplanes and 12 Georges Levy R flying boats. Breguet was an excellent reconnaissance and light bomber aircraft but Georges Levys were bad and Finnish pilots called it a "flying coffin" (have I heard this same name somewhere before... ) due to numerous accidents. The one in 1919 donated (from Italy) Savoia S.9 flying boat was much better. There is nothing else on the plane.


Some more information on the early unit and airbases:


Russian / Red airbases in Finland in 1918

Turku
Hermanni (Helsinki) moved to Santahamina
Utti
Koivisto
Sortavala
Lappeenranta


15.10.1918

Lento-osasto 1 (Flying Detachment 1) at Sortavala
Lento-osasto 2 (Flying Detachment 2) at Santahamina (Helsinki)
Lento-osasto 3 (Flying Detachment 3) at Utti
Lento-osasto 4 (Flying Detachment 4) at Koivisto
Lento-osasto 5 (Flying Detachment 5) at Turku
1.10.1918- Suomen Lentopataljoona [Finnish Flying Battalion] at Turku
-> 15.10.1918- Lentopataljoona (Flying Battalion) at Santahamina with
--- HQ
--- Training Company
--- Dock Company


16.9.1919

Ilmailupataljoona (Aviation Battalion) at Santahamina (Aviation School)
Ilmailuosasto I (Aviation Detachment I) at Sortavala
Ilmailuosasto II (Aviation Detachment II) at Utti (Aviation School)
Ilmailuosasto III (Aviation DEtachment III) at Koivisto
Ilmailuosasto IV (Aviation Detachment IV) at Viipuri (inactive with guard crew only)
Ilmailuosasto V (Aviation Detachment V) at Turku (inactive with guard crew only)

The last ones were suspended soon after that.


The number of aircraft and trained pilots:

1920 18 planes ? pilots
1921 14 8
1922 13 14
1923 18 21
1924 72 29
1925 116 29

As can be seen the lack of trained pilots seem to have been severe in the 1920's. No wonder many of the new planes obtained were elementary trainers or other trainer aircraft.

[BIGpanzer]

Thanks, Harri for the interesting info again!
Yes, the lack of trained pilots in young Finnish Air Force was tremendous according to the info you`ve posted - 29 pilots for 116 aircrafts!
Me seems that one of the first good training aircrafts in Finland was French parasol monoplane Morane-Saulnier M.S.50 (Finland bought six in 1925, used them till 1932). They had numbers 2G6-2G11 (later changed into MS 51 - MS 56).

As for the first Finnish flying boats - I found the info that Finns used in 1918-1922 nine Russian biplane armed reconnaissance flying boats of Grigorovich (Shetinin) M-9 type. That were excellent flying boats in 1915-1917 when they were used by the Russian Navy, but in the beginning of 1920s they became obsolete, having a low speed. Nevertheless, their seakeeping performance for Baltic Sea was very good, also they could be used from the frozen lakes.........

Also I found quite interesting info about the White Finnish Air Force during the Civil war and later, till early 1920s (with the images of some first Finnish airplanes and their new national marking with blue swastika) -
http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v2/v2n3/whitfalc.html

Interesting fact from that site:

Finland's official first aircraft, a Swedish Thulin-built Morane parasol, was the gift of a private citizen and foreigner, Swedish Count Eric von Rosen, who flew into the country with his pilot shortly after independence (a German Albatros B.II may, in fact, have arrived earlier, but this makes a less attractive story). The Count's personal lucky charm was a blue swastika, which the Finns quixotically adopted.

[BIGpanzer]

I found a map of Finnish military districts for 1936-1937!

[BIGpanzer]

Does anybody have the FULL list with the EXACT amount of the native (produced in Finland) Finnish aircrafts of 1920-1939?

Also please help me with any info (links) about the history of Finnish airctaft-building firms: Ilmailuvoimien Lentokonetehdas - IVL (Aviation Force Aircraft Factory), Valtion Lentokonetehdas - VL (State Aircraft Factory), Valtion Metallitehaat Lentokonetehdas - Valmet (State Metal Works, Aircraft Works), may be some other existed......


Best regards, BIGpanzer