State of British Ground Forces, September 1940, Sealion

[sitalkes]

The date of the British Army TO& E in "We Shall Fight Them" is not mentioned so I asked Ian what it was. Ian says
"It was based on the end of month returns book so would be 30 Sept 40; however, for the key units (those large and those located in the invasion area) it was taken from 24 Sept. Where appropriate I have listed key dates on moves of the units.
I have revised my work to accommodate some minor changes and will be uploading it as soon as I can."

[Knouterer]

I don't want to be overly critical, but I do believe I have noted a number of discrepancies, errors and omissions there. For example, on page 328 the strength of the Household Cavalry is listed as 105 officers and 3,276 other ranks. The General Return of the Strength of the British Army as of 30.9.1940 lists the strength of the HC as 105 Off 1,559 OR of whom about half were at home and the rest in Palestine.

The number 105 + 3,276 is at the bottom of the page, but does not refer to the HC, but to the other (horsed) cavalry units at home, all training and remount units.

In that same list, Lofting omits to list the Foot Guards, who numbered over 30,000 at home as of 30 Sept. according to the General Return (two battalions were in Egypt). Most of them in the London Area, but some elsewhere, for ex. the garrison of Dover included a training battalion of the Irish Guards.

[Knouterer]

To my surprise I see that Lofting lists the HC Training Regiment under "Southern Command Troops", on page 219:

"RAC: Household Cavalry Training Regt (Windsor) (26+492)..."

This Training Regiment was clearly not part of the Royal Armoured Corps and neither Windsor nor Hyde Park were in Southern Command.

The problem with Lofting's book is that he gives no specific sources or dates and while the suggestion is that his data refer to the end of September, in fact they often refer to the situation several months earlier or later.

As one example of many, with regard to the Support Group of the 2nd Armoured Division he states (p. 228) that the 2nd Royal Horse Artillery had only four 4.5" howitzers and four 18-pdrs; that may have been the case in June, but by the end of Sept. this regiment was fully equipped with sixteen 25-pdrs. Also, the 1st Derbyshire Yeomanry is listed as part of this Support Group, but in fact it had been assigned to the 1st Infantry Division as of 19 June, as related on page 16 of this thread.

On several occasions, Lofting directly contradicts himself, for example on page 215 he claims that by 7 Sept. the 4th Infantry Division had 40% of its A/T guns, yet on the same page he writes about the division's AT Regt (the 14th): "Regt concentrated at Romsey with 6x2-pdr, rest as infantry". That would be 12.5% of a full complement of 48 guns, not 40%.

[sitalkes]

I was surprised to find references to World War 1 tanks in Ian Lofting's book, then found another reference in "Finest Hour" by Tim Clayton and Phil Craig.
One Mark IV tank, “Old Bill”, had been placed at Chatham naval barracks as a memorial to the sailors who manned it at the Battle of Cambrai in 1917. In June 1940 it was brought back to life and driven to the barracks front gate in a pall of blue smoke to act as a gate guard. Another World War 1 tank, similarly placed as a memorial, was revived by naval ratings at Portsmouth, and several more were rescued from scrap merchants and pressed into service. The female Mark IV tank in Ashford town centre is now the only one on public display; in 1929 the back of the tank was removed, as well as all the mechanical workings inside, and an electricity sub station was installed within, so although it was in the invasion area, it would have been of little use to the defenders. They only had 12mm frontal armour anyway.
Anybody know of any more details of these tanks?

The Ashford tank as it would have looked in WW2

[sitalkes]

I bought the HPS Sealion game and would like to recommend it to anyone interested in operational games. Although the graphics are rather dated (1024/768, ) it has the most accurate TO&E of any Sealion game I've played - units can be specified down to company level. if you want to keep track of British units, the TO&E editor in this game is really easy to use and it might be worth getting it just for that. You will find British artillery units for instance that have a combination of 75mm and other guns, or German AT units that have just the first company of the AT battalion equipped with 47mm guns. Only problem is that the primary source is Ronald Wheatley and the Brighton to Hythe (beaches E-A) and possibly Deal plan is used for the September scenario, though you have more choice for the July scenario. The troops get landed at different times of the day according to a timetable which was presumably in Wheatley. No mention of Schenk but they must have used that source as well as it was last updated in 2010 and all the German first wave armour is included

http://www.hpssims.com/pages/products/p ... alion.html

[sitalkes]

There's a new Sealion book coming out next month (maybe 20 October) https://ospreypublishing.com/we-march-against-england It is written by a US author and claims not to be the usual re-hash of British sources;

"Robert Forcyzk, author of Where the Iron Crosses Grow, looks beyond the traditional British account of Operation Sea Lion, complete with plucky Home Guards and courageous Spitfire pilots, at the real scale of German ambition, plans and capabilities. He examines, in depth, how Operation Sea Lion fitted in with German air-sea actions around the British Isles as he shows exactly what stopped Hitler from invading Britain."

I sent Osprey a proposal for a Sealion book a long time ago; although it was rejected, it looks like they have listened.

[Knouterer]

This website gives the numbers of carriers on hand as 2,242 on 30 June, 3,181 on 31 July, and 3,784 on 31 Aug.: http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php? ... &Itemid=61
That tallies reasonably well with the Statistical Digest which gives the numbers of "armoured carriers, armoured cars, scout cars and command vehicles" produced as 1,617 in the second quarter and 1,985 in the third quarter, considering that the other three categories of armoured vehicles were produced in very limited quantities at the time.
The number of carriers lost in France is estimated at 1,000 minimum.
Bren Carriers, Scout Carriers and Universal Carriers were also used by other arms besides the infantry.

A recent thread on this forum (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4&t=224545 ) shows an interesting table according to which total carrier production was 2,345 up to the end of 1939 and 5,381 in 1940. These numbers are compatible with losses of about a thousand in France and 4,000+ on hand by the end of September. The Statistical Digest gives the total production of armoured vehicles other than tanks, i.e. carriers, armoured cars, scout cars and command vehicles, as 6,070 for 1940 (1,850 in the last quarter). Deducting 5,831 carriers that would leave 239 for the three other categories, which seems on the low side, as the production of Daimler Dingoes alone must have reached that number. However, it's possible the 184 Lloyd carriers (used as gun tractors, line layers etc.) are not counted as AFVs in the SD, because in fact they were mostly not armoured. In that case the number of “other AFVs” would be 423 for 1940, which sounds better.

Lofting (p. 321) gives the number of carriers produced “during the summer” as 2,206, plus 72 Humber Light Reconnaissance Cars and 266 scout cars (Daimler Dingoes). Those numbers seem on the high side.

[Knouterer]

The subject of Operation Sealion continues to arouse interest, Robert Forczyk has just published another book about it, as announced by Sitalkes above. I got it in the mail this morning and am just flipping through it, but I'm already gratified to see he has been reading this thread, even if he doesn't mention it. For example, page 230: "By September, British units on the front line, such as the 8th Royal Fusiliers, were still equipped with a mix of civilian and military vehicles. Interestingly, when military lorries finally arrived in April 1941, they were American-built Dodge 1 1/2-ton trucks with left-side steering, so drivers had to be re-trained how to use these strange vehicles."

Compare to my post of 8 May 2015 on page 14 of this thread.

[sitalkes]

Also published this month: "World at War" magazine issue 50, which includes a preview of the S& T Sealion game. Issue 52 will be the Sealion issue. The Sealion game will be the first to include the work done on this forum in establishing the strength of British forces, as well as the Pillbox Study Group's work on the stop lines. the game will be the first to include the Channel guns, factories, radar masts, and other aspects of strategic and tactical interest. The naval aspects will have to be fought out as the game incorporates land, sea, and air combat. Other work on this forum inspired the article in issue 50 about the German "funnies"

https://shop.strategyandtacticspress.co ... tCode=WW50

[Knouterer]

A few notes about armoured cars in service:

Rolls-Royce: according to the Osprey booklet (written by David Fletcher) on this A/C, the War Office bought 53 of the 1920 pattern and 24 of the improved 1924 pattern. These, with some leftovers from WWI, equipped eight Territorial A/C companies and some Regular units. The RAF bought 13 to protect its bases overseas. Early in WWII, most of the remaining RRs were in the Middle East, but the 1st Derbyshire Yeomanry, the North Irish Horse (in Ulster) and possibly other units operated a few.
The 1920 Pattern RR armoured car in the tank museum at Bovington is apparently one of the cars used by the 1st DY during this period: http://www.marqueart.com/marqueart/back ... ed_car.htm

Small numbers of Crossley A/Cs were built for the Indian Army and for export in the 1920s. In the early 1930s the British army bought five and the RAF three for overseas service (http://www.crossley-motors.org.uk/history/military.html ). The 1st DY reported having received five “of a great age” on 19.9.1939, quite possibly the only ones left in Britain at that time.

Lanchester: a heavy 6x4 vehicle armed with one .5 Vickers and two .303 Vickers. The Army ordered 35 in 1928-1929, including some command vehicles with reduced armament. In 1940 most were in the Far East, some saw action in the Malayan campaign. According to Wikipedia, in 1940 10 Lanchesters were issued to the 23rd London Armoured Car Company (this unit however morphed into the 3rd and 4th County of London Yeomanry by then; these units were part of the 22nd Armoured Brigade and equipped with light tanks) and the 1st Derbyshire Yeomanry (again …) and one was converted to provide protected transportation for use by Cabinet ministers and other VIPs.
In 1941 two were given to the 1st Belgian armoured car squadron.

In the early 1930s, War Office thinking was that the reconnaissance role could best be carried out by light tanks and tracked carriers, of which considerable numbers were ordered. In the BEF several cavalry regiments (Yeomanry), equipped with 28 Mk VI light tanks and 44 Scout Carriers each, were grouped in the 1st and 2nd Light Armoured Reconnaissance Brigades.
However, by the mid-30s it was felt that some armoured cars might be useful after all.

Morris CS9: 100 of these (plus 1 prototype) were ordered and delivered in 1936-38. Not a very successful design, cross-country performance was poor (no 4-wheel drive), armour was thin (6 mm) and armament was weak (Bren & Boys). The 12th Lancers, the only A/C regiment with the BEF, took 38 cars to France and lost them all. Others were in service in the Middle East/North Africa. It does not seem that more than a handful, if that, were left in Britain by September; the 12th Lancers at any rate received no replacements and were by that time equipped with 93 Beaverettes.

Guy Mk I/Mk Ia: a heavy armoured car, initially called a “light wheeled tank”. The first fifty (Mk I) were armed with a .50 and a .303 Vickers MG, the next fifty (Mk Ia) with a 15 mm and a 7.92 mm Besa MG. Production apparently complete by mid-1940; as Guy was fully occupied with the production of artillery tractors, the design was passed on to the Rootes Group, which used it as the basis for the Humber armoured car. Six went to France with the “Phantom” mission and were all lost; when “Phantom” was reorganized shortly afterwards, it was re-equipped with Daimler Scout Cars, better suited to their task of discreet intelligence gathering. According to Newbold’s table for the end of Sept. there were then 64 Guys with the 20th Armoured Brigade, all with the 2nd Northamptonshire Yeomanry (the other two battalions were equipped with carriers and trucks). Normal complement for a Heavy Armoured Car Regiment was 58; the six extra cars were with a special detachment of this regiment tasked with the protection of King, Queen and Prime Minister, who themselves travelled at that time in specially adapted Humber Mk I armoured cars, driven by men of the 12th Lancers. Some more Guys may have been with training units.

Daimler Scout Car (Dingo): entered production towards the end of 1939. Total number available by Sept. 1940 unknown, may have been in the region of 200. The three tank battalions of the 22nd Armoured Brigade (2nd Armoured Division) had 10 each by the end of the month.

Humber Light Reconnaissance Car, also known as the “Humberette” or “Ironside”: first cars delivered in July 1940. About 200 of the Mk I were produced before it was replaced by the Mk II in 1941. As noted before, the 1st Derbyshire Yeomanry received 38 in September. The three tank battalions of the 22nd Armoured Brigade (2nd Armoured Division) had 6 each by the end of the month, according to their WDs.

In addition to the above, a small handful of A/Cs from WWI and the immediate aftermath (RR, Peerless) was also resurrected for the occasion. And then there were of course many hundreds of Beaverettes, Armadillos, Bisons, Campbell Cars, etc., plus all the homemade more or less armoured vehicles of the Home Guard.

[Knouterer]

For a War Establishment of a regiment with heavy armoured cars as of January 1940 see: http://www.warestablishments.net/Great% ... 201940.pdf .

A revised W/E of November 1940 provides for one Thompson submachine gun per car. Daimler armoured cars with 2pdr guns are here mentioned as one option, but those did not enter service before 1941: http://www.warestablishments.net/Great% ... 201940.pdf

[Knouterer]

A page from a new book by Roger Salmon, Everything worked like clockwork. The Mechanization of the British Cavalry between the two World Wars:

[Knouterer]

The subject of Operation Sealion continues to arouse interest, Robert Forczyk has just published another book about it, as announced by Sitalkes above. I got it in the mail this morning and am just flipping through it, but I'm already gratified to see he has been reading this thread, even if he doesn't mention it. For example, page 230: "By September, British units on the front line, such as the 8th Royal Fusiliers, were still equipped with a mix of civilian and military vehicles. Interestingly, when military lorries finally arrived in April 1941, they were American-built Dodge 1 1/2-ton trucks with left-side steering, so drivers had to be re-trained how to use these strange vehicles."

Compare to my post of 8 May 2015 on page 14 of this thread.

I wrote a (fairly critical) review of Forczyk's book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/We-March-Again ... st+england

[Knouterer]

The 6pdrs of 1940 were the tank guns left over from WWII which had a muzzle velocity of barely more than half that quoted (about 415 m/sec) and could perhaps, with luck, and preferably with multiple hits, have knocked out a Pz III or IV from the side (20-30 mm armour) at very close range.

According to David Fletcher, the “short” 6pdr as adopted in January 1917 had a muzzle velocity of 1,350 fps (411 m/sec) and with solid shot could penetrate an estimated 1.2 inches (30 mm) of armour at 500 m. As it happens, 30 mm was the thickness of the armour (turret and hull, all round) of the PzKpfw III as produced and in service in 1940 (Ausf. F and G). The PzKpfw IV Ausf. D had 30 mm frontally and 20 mm on the sides of the hull and turret. From July 1940, additional armour plates were fitted to new Pz IV tanks and retrofitted to older ones when they were sent in for repairs, but this does not seem to have been done to the Pz IV converted to Tauchpanzer, at least I haven’t noticed it on photos.

Drawing is from the War Diary of the 922nd Defence Battery and shows how one of its 6pdr guns (in Post 17) is in fact sited to engage enemy tanks (or other vehicles) from the side at fairly close range.

[Knouterer]

Picture of the area (about 10 km to the SW of Maidstone) from GoogleEarth - these old aerial pics seem to be (mostly) from 1944 or later, and regrettably are badly spliced together here, but I believe I can see the pillbox: