The battle of Mont Ormel and Das Reich's counterattack

[Cyprek]

For some time I've been trying to figure out which "Das Reich's" unit's were involved in the counterattack aimed at the Polish positions on the hill 262 on 20 August 1944.

I know for sure that the 9th and 11th Comapnies of the "Der Führer" Regiment were attacking from the north (moreless along the Chambois-Vimoutiers route). They were supported by 2 Mark IVs (both were knocked out) and one Panther (the famous Panther that managed to knock out 5 Polish Shermans and damage another one firing from a position on the hill 239).

II battalion of "Der Führer" was deployed on the left flank of those two Comapnies. It is highly probable that this particular battalion was the unit that for several times attacked the positions of Polish 8th Rifle Battalion. The first attack came around 14:00 (Allied time) after heavy bombardment and it was repulsed. It was renewed at 15:00. The infantry was backed by three tanks (German sources say that those were 2 Mark IVs and a Panther; Polish sources tend to suggest that there were 3 Mark IVs). There was heavy hand-to-hand fighting. the grenadiers were trying to climb on the Shermans in order to throw some expolosives inside. The Germans advanced some 300 metres deep nito Polish positions. The advance was stopped after they lost all their tanks (about 17:00). The infantry went on to the defensive. It took till 7 PM to eliminate the last groups of stragglers. What you can see in the pictures below is probably that particular Panther ("415"?) that supported the attack (+ "Der Führer's" SPW). Source: Jan Marowski's book "Śladami czołgów Pierwszej Dywizji Pancernej" Wrocław 1948 and Stanisław Maczek's "Od podwody do czołga" London 1975.





Third attack came from the east and it was synchronised with the one described above. My theory is that the unit used for the attack was the II battalion of the "Deutschland" Regiment. The German sources say that this regiment reached St Pierre sur Dives around 3 PM. The description of the fighting is very succinct. I's merely said that some Polish Shermans were encountered and knocked out from a close distance. The II battalion's commander (Obersturmführer Zwörner) was wounded during the fighting so I think it's highly probable that this was the infantry battalion that attacked. According to the Polish sources the first wave of the attack was supported by a Mark IV and a Panther. After those vehicles were knocked out the germans sent further 4 armored vehicles. It' uncertain what kind of vehicels they were (there are some hinst that they were Mark IVs). The grenadiers penetrated Polish lines and reached 8th Infantry Battalion's headquarters. The Poles counterattacked usin the 3rd squadron of 1st Armored Regiment backed by variuos hotch-potch infantry units. 3 German vehicles were knocked out. The remaining one managed to escape.

In total the Poles lost 11 Shermans and some 300 killed, wounded and missing. My estimation of the German casualties is as follows: 2 Panthers, 5 - 8 Mark IVs and several hundred men (200? 300? 400?).

I'm uncertain about the participation of the 2nd SS recon battalion. On one hand the German sources don't mention that unit's participation. On the other hand the Polish sources say that the German attack was very strong (would two weak companies and two weak battalions manage to create such an impression; well I'm quite ambivalent about this). And there is this picture (source: Jan Marowski's book "Śladami czołgów Pierwszej Dywizji Pancernej" Wrocław 1948) .



I know that recon battalion had several Stugs at that time. What is more the Stug battalion (or the remains of it) were put under Sturmbannführer's Krag's command (he was the commander of the recon battalion). For a long time I used top think that this vehicle might have been a part of the Falschirm Stug Brigade. According to the Polish accounts some assoult guns crewed by the Luftwaffe personel were knocked out on the western slopes of the hill 262. The only snag is that there are many trees around the wreck. For whole I know the western slopes of the "Mace" were bald (the Polish troops called it "the bald hill"). The eastern slopes were heavily wooded so maybe this vehicle was destroyed on the eastern slope. If so it might be from the 2nd SS recon battalion.

Any information would be much appreciated.

[Cyprek]

This assault gun most likely is StuH 42. For whole I know 2nd SS didn't have such vehicles. The units equipped in StuHs were: 341. StuG.Brig., 902. StuG.Abt. and 12. Fs.StuG.Brig. which is my guess about the unit of the vehicle seen in the picture.

Fortunatelly it seems like neither the recon battalion nor the StuG battalion did participate in the counterattack. I wonder what was the reason for their lack of participation. Were they too busy with resciung Hausser and Kurt Meyer?

[Cyprek]

About that Sdkfz 251 seen in the pictures above. There is only one claim of knocking out a halftrack (of course if one excludes all the retreating vehicles destroyed by the artillery and tank fire on the roads Chambois-Vimoutiers, Trun-Vimoutiers and Chambois-St Pierre sur Dives-Vimoutiers). At 9 AM 11th Comapny of the "Der Führer" Regiment attacked the positions of the 3rd Comapny of 9th Rifle Battalion. The grenadiers were supported by a Mark IV and a halftrack full of the firing grenadiers. The Mark IV was knocked out by a 6 pdr anti-tank gun. The SPW was knocked out by a PIAT fire. I'm nearly sure that it was that particular haltrack that you can see in the picture. Then in some funny twist of fate a Panther was knocked out very close to the SPW. I believe it was 6-7 hours later.

There is one interesting incident that occurred during the attacks of "Der Führer's" third battalion. The Polish dressing station that was situated in the northern part of Mont Ormel was under constant fire from the two "Der Führer's" companies (I've read Hauptsturmführer Werner's post battle report and it is clear that those were 9th and 11th Comapnies that for several houres constantly fired at the dressing station). The Polish soldier that was trying to climb on a tree in order to hang there a red cross flag was wounded in the hand. But this is not the thing that is the most interesting. The dressing station was the place where the German POWs were kept. For all that time the 2nd SS' grenadiers were firing also (or especially...) at the German POWs. It is clear that there was a number of 2nd SS soldiers among the prisoners. They were taken during the first attack from 9 AM (the one made by the 11th Comapny). So in that case it is clear that the SS grenadiers from 9th and 11th Comapnies were firing at their "colleagues" from the same companies and at the tankers from their panzerregiment. The personal account of Liutenant dr Józef Szygowski suggests that about 20 SS men (including the crew of the Mark IV that backed the attack from 9 PM) were killed due to the machinegun fire of the SS grenadiers from the same unit. He goes on to say that German POWs were shouting at their "comrades" to stop firing but this brought no result (a Hauptmann name of Dorazil was even ordering to cease fire; maybe somebody knows more about this officer; he was an Austrian, a vet, it seems that he survived the battle; he might have been from the 2nd Panzer Division). Szygowski recalled that the grenadiers were firing from not a longer distance than 50 metres so they must have heard the shouts (Szygowski was able to hear their chats).

Also the attack that was carried out at 15 PM and hit the positions of the 8th Rifle Battalion was unusual. The 2nd SS grenadiers were approaching with white falgs and pieces of material. In this situation the commander of Polish 2nd Armored Regiment Liutenant-Colonel Koszutski ordered one tank platoon to move out and pick up the surrendering Germans (this gives some imperssion about the number of the grenadiers - one tank platoon is 4 Shermans which is enough to carry some 40 soldiers but it is possible that there were more grenadiers hidden in the bushes). When the Shermans came closer they came under fire from Mark IVs in ambush positions. 3 Shermans were knocked out. Dirty game. It is highly probable that Panther "415" seen in the pictures above was one of the tanks that participated in that ambush.

I wrote that there were 2 Panthers involved in the attack. So where is the second? What you can see below is said to be near Boisjos but I also heard opinions (on this forum) that this particular tank was photographed somewhere in the vicinity of Chambois. It makes all the case a bit puzzled. The tank has some tracks apllied to the turret for extra protection. That was the habit of LSSAH and 116th PD but I'd exlude 116th as they also applied spare wheels to the turret which is not the case of that particular Panther.

[Cyprek]

I've decided to widen the topic a little bit.

On 19th August the Polish 1st Armored Regiment reached the hill 262. On the Chambois-Vimoutiers route (running through the center of the hill) a German column was spotted. The entire regiment (about 50 Shermans) assembled along the route and opened fire. There were two Panthers among the destroted vehicles.



Source: "Polski czyn zbrojny w drugiej wojnie światowej" Warszawa 1981.

Below is a zoom on the Aufs.G. Source: "Śladami czołgów 1 Dywizji Pancernaj" Wrocław 1948.



Here you can see both Aufs.G and Aufs.A. Source: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... ein+spirit



Aufs.G's rear. Source as above.



Aufs.A's turret. Source: "1 Dywizja Pancerna w walce" Brussels 1947.



Aufs.A's flank. Source: the Internet (I can't remember the site).



Aufs.A's rear. Source: AHF (link as above). I believe that the truck which can be seen passing by the tanks is from 1st Polish AD. The symbol painted in the white circle looks very much like the divisional symbol to me (the so called "squirrel"). It was always painted on a white background.



Aufs.A's rear once again. source as above.



In Michael Reynolds' book "Steel inferno" one can see another shoot of these Panthers (from the flank).

The obvious question is what unit these Panthers are from. My answer is LAH. Both carried spare tracks as an extra protection for the turret. In the Panther Aufs.G they were blown by an anti-tank shell fired by a Sherman. One can see them lying on the hull. Also the penetration can be seen on the turret (it's stark better visible in the photo from Reynolds' book). What is more in the picture number 4 one can see that Aufs.G is still carrying some tracks applied to its turret. So this is the first reason to believe that it's 1st SS. 116th Panzer Div. also applied some tracks to the turrets but ussually they painted the tank's numerals either on the tracks or directly on the turret's flank and rear. They used yellow paint for their numerals. I can't see anything of that sort in those pictures. In the two last pictures some camo stains can bee faintly seen. In my opinion it's very much like the camoflauge used by the LAH. Moreover it was LAH that was withdrawing on that particular day (19th August).

[Lodieu Didier]

Veru good study.
I worked also on the subejct in my book La Massue.
The panther engaged on Mont Ormel were not the majority from the I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 2 like it had been claimed since 60 years.
The 7./Pz.Rgt. 16 was also engaged and loosed all his Panther. Like a lot members of this members, you can take me for a fool because you'll tell that this Kp got only Pz. IV. Yes, but it was before the aug. 10-11 1944. After this date, the survivors take the order to get their new Panther near Paris and return in hell, in the Falaise Pocket, specially at Coudehard.
Everybody had to be carefull with the gegenangriff denn II. SS-Pz.Korps because a lot unities from Heer and Lw palyed a great role to.
In fact, we are influenced by the memories of Werner and the Weidinger's book.
So long.
The lone historian from Normandy.

[Jan-Hendrik]

Very interesting information , dear Didier

Jan-Hendrik

[Cyprek]

Hello Didier!

I've ordered your book today. Don't you think that the Panther "X15" (the one close to the SPW) and the one by the road (fourth picture in the thread) might be the same tank? I've found some 10 features that speak for it. The areas where the Zimmerit was removed are very similar, the general postition etc. etc. What is more Florentin wrote that the wreck from the fourth picture was photographed somewhere near Boisjos (so the same sector as "X15"). I'm very very close to conclude that it is the same tank. The only major difference is the lack of SPW in the picture. But they must have removed those wrecks in the end, didn't they?

Talking about 116th PD's panzers. This is what I intended to ask about. I've heard that some Panther detatchment from Heer cooperated with "Das Reich" during the counterattack. Polish sources speak of some Panther tank that lost a track on the eastern slope of Mont Ormel and then, after it was repaired, participated in "Das Reich's" attack (I think it was the II battalion of the "Deutschland" Regiment). The Panther managed to knock out a Sherman and some Bren Carriers. Together with a Mark IV it reached Colonel Nowaczynski's headquartes. Then both were knocked out. The 2nd SS Mark IV can be seen in your book. But what about that Heer Panther?





The first picture was taken by a Canadian photographer. The second I believe was taken during some trip of Polish soldiers to Normandy (just like some pictures from your book). So maybe it's the Panther that caused so much trouble. Polish sources say that it was a 6 pdr gun that knocked out that tank (it fired for three times). Nobody bailed out. To tell the truth the hatches of this Panther are opened but it seems to be a resul of an internal explosion.

[Cyprek]

In the first picture of "104" one can see a fence. I think it's very similar to the one seen on the page 212 of Didier's book. Maybe both vehicles were knocked out along the same route?

[mark67]

Cypek "104" is so called late Panther - in production since September/October 44 and has nothing to do with Normandy. (BTW second picture is credited to Marian Walentynowicz).

[Cyprek]

Thanks for that remark. I wouldn't have realised.

Frankly, I've analised the Polish sources for one more time and basing on what is written down there one can conclude that this particular Panther was the vehicle that got away!

I've also found an account clearly saing that Panther "X15" was destroyed during the attack that took place in the morning of 20th August. It was standing on the road. What we can see in those picture is not only a result of the combat but also of some bulldozer's activity.

So:

1 SPW, 1 Mark IV and Panther "X15" - knocked out by 9th Rifle Battalion near Boisjos at 9-10 AM. We have some pictures of SPW and Panther but I don't know any picture of the Mark IV. It should show some damage to the commander's hatch.

1 SPW, 1 Mark IV - knocked out by the transport platoon of 9th Rifle Battalion at the same time as above. No pictures available.

3 Mark IVs - 2 knocked out by the 3rd Squadron of 1st Armored Regiment, 1 knocked out by a 17 pdr. There are two pictures showin one of these Mark IVs.

2 Mark IVs - knocked out by anti-tank guns. One picture is known to me.

Total of: 2 SPWs, 7 Mark IVs and 1 Panther. The pictures of 4 out of 10 vehicles are known to me.

Most of these should be "Das Reich's" vehicles. The SPW close to the Panther "X15" is a Heer vehicle.

[Lodieu Didier]

What you can see below is said to be near Boisjos but I also heard opinions (on this forum) that this particular tank was photographed somewhere in the vicinity of Chambois.
THIS ONE HAD BEEN DESTROYED ON THE ROAD LE VIGAN - CHAMPOSOULT

It makes all the case a bit puzzled. The tank has some tracks apllied to the turret for extra protection. That was the habit of LSSAH and 116th PD but I'd exlude 116th as they also applied spare wheels to the turret which is not the case of that particular Panther.

FOR THE WHILE, WE CAN SAY HABIT OF... AND 116. PZ. DIV. because any of us SEE a picture pf a Panther from the 7./PZ;Rgt. 16. Or maybe you want to speak about the I./Pz.rgt. 24 attached to 116. Pz.div.
SOME YEARS AGO, I SOPKE WITH EX-OBLT. HARDER, KP.CHIEF OF THIS KP. HE ASSURED ME THAT ANY PANTHER OF HIS KP WORE NUMBERS ON THE TURELL. ALL OF THEM WERE NEWS.

EXCUSE ME CYPREK, I AM LOOSED WITH PANTHER X15. WHICH PICTURES.

FOR THE PANTHER DESTROYED IN THE SAME TIME THAN THE SHERMAN, I REFOUND A PERSON WHO SAW INSIDE IT. THERE WERE BODIES OF WAFFEN-SS AND A WOMAN WAS WITH THE TEAM. WITHOUT A DOUBT THIS PANTHER BELONGED TO I./SS-PZ.RGT. 2. THE SPW BELONGED TO 2. PZ.DIV. OR 116. PZ.DIV. IT'S NEAR BOIJOS.

ABOUT THE STUG, I HAVE FOR PROOVE THAT DURING THE ATTCK FROM CHAMBOIS, ORGANSISED BY LAH, THERE WAS A STUG FROM THE FALLSCHIRM-STUG;BRIGADE 12. I STUDIED LONGLY THIS ATTACK AND REFOUND THREE VETERANS WHO WERE ENGAGED HERE. SEE MY BOOK « FROM D'ARGENTAN TO THE SEINE ». (HTTP://DIDIERLODIEU.SITE.VOILA.FR)

[Cyprek]

Panther "X15" is the one close to the Sherman and the SPW. In the beginning of the thread I called it "415" becouse it appeared to me that the first number is "4". Now I think that only the last two numerals are clear. I'm not sure about the first one. So it's "X15".

THIS ONE HAD BEEN DESTROYED ON THE ROAD LE VIGAN - CHAMPOSOULT

Are you 100% sure of that? For me this Panther is very very similar to the "X15" from Boisjos. As I wrote: identical position, similar terrain, lack of Zimmerit in the same areas. When I look at the "zoom in" picture of "X15" (the one from your book, where we can see a Polish soldier standing in front of the Panther) it appears to me that some part of the track hanged on the other side of the turret is visible. The only major difference between this Panther and "X15" is the absence of the SPW in the picture. Maybe somebody just removed the SPW and this is why we can't see it in the picture?

FOR THE PANTHER DESTROYED IN THE SAME TIME THAN THE SHERMAN, I REFOUND A PERSON WHO SAW INSIDE IT. THERE WERE BODIES OF WAFFEN-SS AND A WOMAN WAS WITH THE TEAM. WITHOUT A DOUBT THIS PANTHER BELONGED TO I./SS-PZ.RGT. 2. THE SPW BELONGED TO 2. PZ.DIV. OR 116. PZ.DIV. IT'S NEAR BOIJOS.

This Sherman is mysterious. In the Polish sources I can't find any statement of losing a Sherman in Boisjos. I must check it once again. 3 Shermans were knocked out due to the ambush with fake POWs but this was more to the east than Boisjos. A Panther positioned on the hill 239 knocked out 5 Shermans west of Boisjos. I don't know any statement of losing a Sherman in Boisjos...

ABOUT THE STUG, I HAVE FOR PROOVE THAT DURING THE ATTCK FROM CHAMBOIS, ORGANSISED BY LAH, THERE WAS A STUG FROM THE FALLSCHIRM-STUG;BRIGADE 12. I STUDIED LONGLY THIS ATTACK AND REFOUND THREE VETERANS WHO WERE ENGAGED HERE. SEE MY BOOK « FROM D'ARGENTAN TO THE SEINE ». (HTTP://DIDIERLODIEU.SITE.VOILA.FR)

I've read about 4 assault guns that attacked from the west on 20th August. They were all knocked out by the 3rd Squadron of the 1st Armored Regiment. In one book it says that those assault guns were crewed by the paratroopers. This happened a short time before the famous Panther from the hill 239 knocked out 5 Shermans of the 3rd Squadron. Is this the counterattack you are talking about? I tend to think that this StuH was one of those 4 assault guns.

[Lodieu Didier]

The panther destroyed ON THE ROAD LE VIGAN - CHAMPOSOULT is the fourth picture of your thread. In my book is 215.

Do you have informations about the crazy Panther who opened fire of the firts aid station ? I get a picture which prents posibly this one in my book. Page 221 ?

[Cyprek]

Do you have informations about the crazy Panther who opened fire of the firts aid station ? I get a picture which prents posibly this one in my book. Page 221 ?

Well, the divisional history by Jan Marowski says that German panzers (Panthers) drove in the middle of the dressing station firing at everything that lives. But I have a memoir of the commander of this particular dressing station. His version of events is much more credible. In the morning of 20th August a Panther, a SPW and a Mark IV attacked along the route from Boisjos. I'm nearly 100% sure that this particular Panther and SPW can be seen in the first two pictures of my thread. According to the dressing station's commander the Panther was standing on the road when it was knocked out. In the pictures we can see that the Panther is standing by the road. I strongly believe tha some bulldozer must have pushed the Panther to the side of the road. The position of the tank which can be seen in the pictures is not a result of combat. What is more according to the memoir no German vehicle opened fire at the dressing station. It was the German infantry (several MG 42). The members of the Panther's and Mark IV's crews that survived were killed by this fire. One more thing: the Panther was knocked out by an anti-tank gun (I guess it was a 6 pdr of from the 9th Infantry Battalion).

[Lodieu Didier]

This version you found by the commander of the dressing station is very important and changes a lot of things.
For the StuG, I have to see. Answer later