Seelöwe: Lets discuss:- German barges, sunk by fighters?

[phylo_roadking]

They had a storage compartment that could carry 350 kg, pull a trailer weighing 775 kg for a total of about 1000 kg, and could climb a 50% slope.

...and some artillery units used them to pull their guns and ammunition supply wagons. The deficiencies were alleviated somewhat by using captured vehicles. at least in the first echelons. Karetten, lighttracked vehicles commandeered during the Western offensive, were well suited for the first echelon.

Each Army had a towed ammunition supply company for resupply of the First Wave divisions

[RichTO90]

Nebel-Werfer-Regiment 51 (attached to 16th Army, Army Group A for Sealion according to Schenk)
Werfer-Regiment 51 (15 April 42)

10 Jul 40 formed at Celle (WK XI)

According to LdW Truppenübungsplatz Munsterlager (WK X) is actually where it was formed. The confusion is that some of the Ersatz-einheiten it was formed from were organized in Celle.

I./ from Nebel-Ersatz-Abteilung 7;
II./ from Nebel-Ersatz-Abteilung 8;
III./from one battery each from Nebel-Lehr-Abteilung, Nebel-Ersatz-Abteilung 1, and Nebel-Ersatz-Abteilung 2
15 Nov 40 Rgt. Stab in Rozoy, France with Nebel-Abt. 8 attached

It completed organization, fully outfitted with 108 15cm NW 41, on 17 October 1940. All the units for SL were equipped with 10cm NW 34.

[RichTO90]

The combined first and second echelon total for lorries for the 35th ID is 794, and 445 field cars of various types, for all its elements - what were the totals BEFORE the summer of 1940?

35. ID was an 1. Welle division, below is the standard TO&E:

Transport:
- horses 4,842
- horsedrawn carriages 919
- passenger cars 394
- trucks 615 (includes prime movers)
- armoured vehicles 3 (light armoured cars)
- motor cycles 527

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Zus ... vision.htm

Which tallies pretty well with Schenk's lists: 4,768 horses, 794 trucks, 445 cars. The slightly larger number of trucks and cars is largely explained by the fact that a tank battalion, a second engineer battalion, and other specialist/supporting units were added to the division.
So, as I noted, no visible significant effort to increase the degree of motorisation of the division.

The Pionier Btl (mot) would account for roughly 37 PKW, 73 LKW, and 24 Krader...not including any bridging elements, which would account for 1 PKW, 28 LKW, and 6 Krader. The Panzer units were ad hoc, so are more difficult to gauge, but as organized with three companies would have had about 6 ZKW, 15 PKW, 34 LKW, and 29 Krader.

So, roughly, 53 "cars", 141 "trucks and prime movers", and 59 "motorcycles" more.

[Knouterer]

Indeed. Add a few more trucks for additional signals units etc. and the total of 794 trucks (and tractors) is easily reached. So, once again, no visible attempt at increased motorisation for the division per se.
The divisions of the "first mobilisation wave", to which the Sealion infantry divisions all belonged, were in fact better off on this score than those coming after, which had about 30% fewer motor vehicles and around 8,000 horses. Some divisions raised in Oct./Nov. 1940 had more MV again because they were largely equipped with French vehicles.

At the regimental level,the only unit that was 100% motorized was the 14th (Panzerjäger) company, with 12 x 37 mm AT guns; the 13th (Infantry Gun) company on the other hand, with 2 x 150 mm guns and 6 x 75 mm guns, had no less than 133 horses.

The Sealion planners could not fit such numbers into the barges and as can be seen from Schenk's lists, the 150 mm guns (SiG 33), which were rather heavy and bulky for an amphibious assault anyway, were put on the transports and would have been landed later.

[Urmel]

So, roughly, 53 "cars", 141 "trucks and prime movers", and 59 "motorcycles" more.

So the net change accounting for this was:

-2 field cars
+ 38 lorries and prime movers

[Knouterer]

I think we should open another thread to discuss the momentous question of who stole those two field cars !!!

More seriously, all these calculations can only be approximate of course, there never was any definitive plan - the German staffs kept coming up with new loading schemes, adding and subtracting units, shifting them from the barges to the ships and back again, well into October if not later.

[Knouterer]

To illustrate that last point (no definitive plan): Schenk explains (page 321 of the German edition) that the attack towards Dover, planned for the afternoon of S-Tag, would be carried out by a "Kampfgruppe Hoffmeister" which would include, apart from whatever was left of the U-Panzer battalion and various other units (artillery, infantry, Pak, Flak, engineers ...) of the 17. ID the 8th MG battalion (M.G. Bataillon 8).

This unit achieved a certain fame later on as part of the Afrika Korps.

However, if you look at the loading schemes in Schenk this unit is nowhere to be found. It would certainly have merited mention because it would have taken up a whole lot of barge space: this was an "oversized" and fully motorized battalion, with 4 MG companies, a "heavy" company, an AT company, and an assault engineer company.

At a rough estimate, 150 field cars, 100 trucks and about 200 motorcycles, half of them with sidecars.

But if we look at a loading scheme (Verladeübersicht) reproduced in Walter Ansel, Hitler confronts England, there they suddenly are!

Ansel gives no source or date but as I understand from a better informed German friend this scheme is based on the plans of the 17. ID of 15 Oct.

[Knouterer]

Nevertheless, since some of us, including myself, like to play with numbers, allow me to point out that the fact that Schenk's list says "49 tanks" indicates that this is the 35. ID, because its supporting U-Panzer battalion had ceded one company to support the 6th Gebirgsdivision landing at Cuckmere Haven (Raum E).

That leaves two companies with 20 tanks each (4 Pz II, 12 Pz III, 4 Pz IV), plus 4 HQ tanks (1 Befehlspanzer I, 1 Pz II, 2 Pz III).

The remaining 5 tanks would then be the "Flammpanzer" accompanying the Vorausabteilung of that division (Schenk mentions only 4, but in addition there would be the "gun tank" (Kanonenpanzer) of the platoon commander, another Pz II normally.

[Knouterer]

To continue the numbers game, of the 4,842 horses in an infantry division (1st wave), 1,743 were riding horses, 2,100 were "light" draft horses (leichte Zugpferde) and 999 were heavy draft horses. As discussed, many if not most of the proud horsemen in the Sealion divisions were forced to exchange their mounts for bicycles. But let's hope that battalion commanders and up, at least, were spared this indignity.

[phylo_roadking]

The Pionier Btl (mot) would account for roughly 37 PKW, 73 LKW, and 24 Krader...not including any bridging elements, which would account for 1 PKW, 28 LKW, and 6 Krader.

Rich, do your MT figures take into account what Schenk says regarding one company in each infantry and engineer battalion in the First Wave being mounted on bicycles for "greater mobility"...?

EDIT: while on this subject...

The Pionier Btl (mot) would account for roughly 37 PKW, 73 LKW, and 24 Krader...not including any bridging elements, which would account for 1 PKW, 28 LKW, and 6 Krader.

...would that not be their existing MT allocation, as per the period which Urmel's figures apply to? What I mean is -

- trucks 615 (includes prime movers)...794

...if the Pionier battalion's normal allocation of 35th ID's trucks is c.101...surely that 101 comes under the 615 figure anyway?


As for accounting for artillery and PAK prime movers, regarding the two figures Schenk gives for First and Second Echelon divisional PAK...

27 PAK anti-tank guns

48 PAK anti-tank guns

...remember he ALSO says that "...the anti-tank forces of each division were reinforced by a company of 4.7cm self-propelled PAK antitank guns based on the panzer I chassis,..."

So no prime movers required for how many of those?

The Panzer units were ad hoc, so are more difficult to gauge, but as organized with three companies would have had about 6 ZKW, 15 PKW, 34 LKW, and 29 Krader

That's assuming - and no, I'm not nitpicking for the sake of it, Schenk simply doesn't say - that the S- and U-panzer "units" were formated with full mobile support. And that it was included in the MT listed for the First Wave...as opposed to arriving later, remembering what he said about them coming ashore with extra stores and fuel to extend their radius of operations. Thus the First Wave MT figures may not include them...

Also - would their transport elements even be accounted for/included at all under the MT for a "reorganized infantry division"? The Infantry division list on p.188 of Schenk doesn't for example list any of the Flak unit MT...so why would he be listing transport elements for a panzerkorps formation under an infantry division TO&E? He only seems to list the tanks on that page at all because they'd be going ashore with the First Echelon of XIII Corps' Fleet B...

[phylo_roadking]

More seriously, all these calculations can only be approximate of course, there never was any definitive plan - the German staffs kept coming up with new loading schemes, adding and subtracting units, shifting them from the barges to the ships and back again, well into October if not later.

There's also the question of when the "reorganised infantry division" thumbnail TO&E applies to.

As an example, we've already seen Schenk account for the presence of the karetten in the infantry division list of equipment - as prime movers and ammunition schleppers...but that list DOESN'T include the Renault UEs for use as vehicle tows which Knouterer was talking about yesterday - 101 additional UEs and "old German armoured vehicles" were released for this purpose by 16th Army on September 1st but aren't accounted for under the divisional equipment list.

[EKB]

This discussion has gone way off topic from barges and fighters. Arguments about the German Order of Battle ought to be split into a new thread.

[RichTO90]

Rich, do your MT figures take into account what Schenk says regarding one company in each infantry and engineer battalion in the First Wave being mounted on bicycles for "greater mobility"...?

My MT figures? They are Christoph Awender's...well, the Heer figures actually.

So that is what Schenk says? Then show me where in the diagram of 17. Infanteriedivision these bicycle troops appear? Hmm, wait, no, one infantry company in one of the two Vorausabteilungen and one of the two infantry companies in each of the remainder of the battalions that make up the initial echelon. Also bicyclists in the Auflaerungs Schwadron, where they would be expected. But of the nine Pionier Kompanien? One is partly motorized, the rest are all non-motorized. The two Brucko are motorized of course. Then as noted there are the motorized elements of the M.G. Batallion - lots of LKW and PKW there.

BTW, I thought you were claiming the divisions were motorized? Are you now trying to say that bicycles count as "motorization"?

Also BTW, you may want to look more closely at the organizational diagram of 17. Infanteriedivision and then re-evaluate your belief since there appears to be something missing on it...

EDIT: while on this subject...
...would that not be their existing MT allocation, as per the period which Urmel's figures apply to? What I mean is -

Whatever do you imagine you are talking about?

...if the Pionier battalion's normal allocation of 35th ID's trucks is c.101...surely that 101 comes under the 615 figure anyway?

Why ever do you imagine that 35. Infanteriedivision would allocate trucks to a Heeres-Pionier Batallion?

As for accounting for artillery and PAK prime movers, regarding the two figures Schenk gives for First and Second Echelon divisional PAK...
...remember he ALSO says that "...the anti-tank forces of each division were reinforced by a company of 4.7cm self-propelled PAK antitank guns based on the panzer I chassis,..."

Why should I remember anything about an issue I did not raise?

So no prime movers required for how many of those?

If it is an issue for you then why don't you attempt to resolve it yourself?

That's assuming - and no, I'm not nitpicking for the sake of it, Schenk simply doesn't say - that the S- and U-panzer "units" were formated with full mobile support. And that it was included in the MT listed for the First Wave...as opposed to arriving later, remembering what he said about them coming ashore with extra stores and fuel to extend their radius of operations. Thus the First Wave MT figures may not include them...

Thanks for not nitpicking but instead only declaring what I was assuming. So refreshing not having to do that oneself you know. In either case, I'm not sure why Schenk's generic declarations, which we know have some inconsistencies, trumps good sense? Do you actually have any idea what the units were formed from? Courtesy of LdW.

Panzer-Abteilung A wurde am 26. Juli 1940 im Wehrkreis X aufgestellt. Die Abteilung wurde aus dem Stab der I. Abteilung vom Panzer-Regiment 2, der 2. Kompanie vom Panzer-Regiment 1, der 2. Kompanie vom Panzer-Regiment 2 sowie weiteren Abgaben der 1. Panzer-Division aufgestellt. Die Abteilung wurde mit 3 Kompanien als Heerestruppe aufgestellt.

Panzer-Abteilung B wurde am 26. Juli 1940 im Wehrkreis XVII aufgestellt. Der Stab und die 3. Kompanie der Abteilung wurden aus Abgaben vom Panzer-Regiment 4, die 1. und 2. Kompanie wurden durch Abgaben vom Panzer-Regiment 3 aufgestellt. Die Abteilung wurde mit 3 Kompanien als Heerestruppe aufgestellt.

Panzer-Abteilung C wurde am 24. Juli 1940 im Wehrkreis III aufgestellt. Die Abteilung wurde aus Abgaben vom Panzer-Regiment 5 und vom Panzer-Regiment 6, von letzterem auch die 2. Kompanie, aufgestellt. Die Abteilung wurde mit 3 Kompanien als Heerestruppe aufgestellt.

Panzer-Abteilung D wurde am 27. Juli 1940 im Wehrkreis VIII aufgestellt. Die Abteilung wurde aus Abgaben der Panzer-Regimenter 15 und 31 als Heerestruppe aufgestellt. Die Abteilung wurde mit 3 Kompanien als Heerestruppe aufgestellt.

In other words, they were all "formated" [sic] from existing Panzer units. Are you under the impression that they abandoned all their unit organizational equipment and were simply a bunch of tank crews that took over some submersible tanks as their sole equipment? How would they function?

Also - would their transport elements even be accounted for/included at all under the MT for a "reorganized infantry division"? The Infantry division list on p.188 of Schenk doesn't for example list any of the Flak unit MT...so why would he be listing transport elements for a panzerkorps formation under an infantry division TO&E? He only seems to list the tanks on that page at all because they'd be going ashore with the First Echelon of XIII Corps' Fleet B...

I don't know, but since there are no Flak units shown for 17. Infanteriedivision, but only "Flak tows" and since there was only a single Flak Abteilung assigned per Korps, I can only suspect they were not considered a divisional attachment, so no reason to count them as part of the divisional "transport elements". OTOH, the Panzer Abteilung B is listed as part of the division...along with sufficient other unit attachments to easily exceed the nominal "transport elements" count.

[phylo_roadking]

EDIT: while on this subject...
...would that not be their existing MT allocation, as per the period which Urmel's figures apply to? What I mean is -

Whatever do you imagine you are talking about?

...if the Pionier battalion's normal allocation of 35th ID's trucks is c.101...surely that 101 comes under the 615 figure anyway?

Why ever do you imagine that 35. Infanteriedivision would allocate trucks to a Heeres-Pionier Batallion?

Ok, here's what I'm trying to get at...http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... n/35ID.htm or as close to the pre-"sealion reorganisation" of the infantry divisions in the First Wave as I have to hand...

35. Infanteriedivision (September 1939):
Infanterie-Regiment 34 (Stab, I.-III.)
Infanterie-Regiment 109 (Stab, I.-III.)
Infanterie-Regiment 111 (Stab, I.-III.)
Artillerie-Regiment 35 (Stab, I.-III.)
Artillerie-Regiment 71 (I.)
Beobachtungs-Abteilung 35
Pionier-Bataillon 35 -consisting of...
1. Kompanie 02912
2. Kompanie 03047
3. Kompanie 22185
Kolonne 05885
Brückenkolonne B ...

Feldersatz-Bataillon 35
Panzerabwehr-Abteilung 35
Aufklärungs-Abteilung 35
Infanterie-Divisions-Nachrichten-Abteilung 35
Infanterie-Divisions-Nachschubführer 35

1/ Would or would not any MT allocated to Pionier-Bataillon 35 comes from the totals on p.188 of Schenk for the 35th ID?

2/ Would Pionier-Bataillon 35 have been fully motorised for Sealion - given that one of its companies was being put on bicycles to improve their mobility/flexibility?

3/ we have "before" Sealion reorganisation, and "after" Sealion reorganisation MT totals for the 35th ID; if any elements of Pionier-Bataillon 35 were motorised BEFORE the reorganisation, would this MT not be accounted for already in the "before" Sealion reorganisation figures I.E. in the figures Urmel provided...? As opposed to them being allocated MT out of the additional MT that Schenk's figures show?

Also BTW, you may want to look more closely at the organizational diagram of 17. Infanteriedivision and then re-evaluate your belief since there appears to be something missing on it...

Actually, the figures from Schenk we've been discussing are for the 35th ID, not the 17th.

Do you actually have any idea what the units were formed from? Courtesy of LdW.

Panzer-Abteilung A wurde am 26. Juli 1940 im Wehrkreis X aufgestellt. Die Abteilung wurde aus dem Stab der I. Abteilung vom Panzer-Regiment 2, der 2. Kompanie vom Panzer-Regiment 1, der 2. Kompanie vom Panzer-Regiment 2 sowie weiteren Abgaben der 1. Panzer-Division aufgestellt. Die Abteilung wurde mit 3 Kompanien als Heerestruppe aufgestellt.

Panzer-Abteilung B wurde am 26. Juli 1940 im Wehrkreis XVII aufgestellt. Der Stab und die 3. Kompanie der Abteilung wurden aus Abgaben vom Panzer-Regiment 4, die 1. und 2. Kompanie wurden durch Abgaben vom Panzer-Regiment 3 aufgestellt. Die Abteilung wurde mit 3 Kompanien als Heerestruppe aufgestellt.

Panzer-Abteilung C wurde am 24. Juli 1940 im Wehrkreis III aufgestellt. Die Abteilung wurde aus Abgaben vom Panzer-Regiment 5 und vom Panzer-Regiment 6, von letzterem auch die 2. Kompanie, aufgestellt. Die Abteilung wurde mit 3 Kompanien als Heerestruppe aufgestellt.

Panzer-Abteilung D wurde am 27. Juli 1940 im Wehrkreis VIII aufgestellt. Die Abteilung wurde aus Abgaben der Panzer-Regimenter 15 und 31 als Heerestruppe aufgestellt. Die Abteilung wurde mit 3 Kompanien als Heerestruppe aufgestellt.

In other words, they were all "formated" [sic] from existing Panzer units. Are you under the impression that they abandoned all their unit organizational equipment and were simply a bunch of tank crews that took over some submersible tanks as their sole equipment? How would they function?

This is what I assumed; that they didn't abandon all their support MT of course, that's why I brought the question up last night...I was actually trying to use your figures (or Chris' or whoevers)...

The Panzer units were ad hoc, so are more difficult to gauge, but as organized with three companies would have had about 6 ZKW, 15 PKW, 34 LKW, and 29 Krader.

....to make Knouterer think about HIS statement after he read what you posted...

Indeed. Add a few more trucks for additional signals units etc. and the total of 794 trucks (and tractors) is easily reached.

....to make HIM ask himself "would their (the panzers') transport elements even be accounted for/included at all under the MT for a "reorganized infantry division"?"

You gave him figures for the panzers' MT...he chose for some reason to chalk those numbers up against 35th ID's MT totals! You go on to pick that aspect up in your post of tonight...

OTOH, the Panzer Abteilung B is listed as part of the division...along with sufficient other unit attachments to easily exceed the nominal "transport elements" count.

That's the thing; Schenk's list isn't a TO&E as such, it's what he describes as "the "strength" of a reorganised infantry division"; up until this point I was indeed assuming that the "49 tanks" were the S- and U-panzers that were supposed to go ashore simultaneously with the 35th ID's first echelon...and yes you can see the tanks on the loading diagrams for XIII Army Corps...

...and you CAN see a small motor column for the Pz.Abt in the second echelon loading diagram - but does that mean it drew its MT from the 35th ID? Or just that it was sharing their shipping? Schenk notes that Stab Pz Abt. would land from the 35th ID's shipping on the evening of S-Day...

(Strangely, although more U-panzers accompanied the 17th...the difference in numbers accounted for previously by Knouterer...I can't see a similar support column in IT'S loading digram...)

[phylo_roadking]

Just as an aside -

BTW, I thought you were claiming the divisions were motorized?

While I DID note in reply to Knouterer, repeating HIS words....

there is indeed a visible significant effort to increase the degree of motorisation of the division.

...on reply to his previous statement -

So, as I noted, no visible significant effort to increase the degree of motorisation of the division.

...I certainly didn't claim that the reorganised infantry divisions were "motorised" as such, they certainly weren't turned into motorised infantry! What I DID say was that the First Wave was MT heavy and posted up what Schenk said as a qualifier...

Most of the German infantry divisions of that time, unlike those of today, were not fully motorised and were mostly foot soldiers in the truest sense of the word. Some signals units had horses and some artillery units used them to pull their guns and ammunition supply wagons. The deficiencies were alleviated somewhat by using captured vehicles, at least in the first echelons. Karetten, light tracked vehicles commandeered during the Western offfensive, were well suited for the first echelon. One company in each infanty and Engineer battalion in the First Wave had bicycles for greater mobility. All existing mounted units were reassigned to bicycles, because horses were difficult to transport.