Seelöwe: British Defensive Measures - Tanks, Flak, Artillery

[Gooner1]

What are those? Six or eight inch guns?

Yup, they're 6" Mark VII guns, the most common coast defence artillery piece. Picture taken from here http://www.fsgfort.com/Cmate/79/Short.htm
Preferred ammunition load was 75% HE shells and 25% CPC (semi-armour piercing).

[Freebird]

But of course as 25-pounder became available many of the 75mm were re-issued, first to the 'Home Counties' brigades and later divisions and then to the Home Guard. However, a fair number of them may have been shipped to Egypt, since the 75mm shows up there in the Western Desert as well. I'll check but I believe some arrived there as early as November or December of 1940, evidently coming from England?

The point is that they only needed to be a stopgap to fill the minor shortfall between new production of 25-pounders and the losses sustained in France. Thanks for the reminder about Nigel's wonderful site, we know that the numbers of artillery in the UK as of the end of May 1940 were:

126 18-pdr
269 18/25-pdr
90 25-pdr +252 produced June-September = 342

So 737 total field guns, sufficient for 30 regiments with a small reserve of 17 pieces. That's enough to fully equip 10 divisions. Now a quick check shows there were just 17 regular regiments in the UK at that time, plus 5 RHA, while there were 82 TA, so 104 regiments to be equipped and a requirement for 2,496 pieces in total. That of course amounts a minimal shortfall of about 864 guns to WE, even if we add in the 895 US guns.

Rich, you have mis-calculated the 25 pdr production, there were also 299 of the 18 pdrs converted to 25 pdrs, + new 18 pdr production. There were 638 of 18 or 25 pdrs produced June - Aug, not 252.

Also the 4.5" howitzer (114mm) and the 60 pdr (127mm) were used as field artillery, not medium.

TAs at 3rd October 1940 artillery in Brocforce area was:-

Eight 6" Medium Howitzers.
Two Field Regiments - 25 Pdr. 4.5" How. and 75 mm.
Eight 12 Pdr Guns on Lorries.
......

So the situation looks far better, with all artillery regiments up to strength by mid-Aug (although not all with 18 or 25 pdrs)

By Aug 16 1940 (3 days after "Alder Tag") the British will have produced about 82% of the 1285 guns listed on the link, giving a total of 2,466 field artillery from 75mm - 127mm.

831 - 25pdrs = 359 initial + 472 produced
177 - 18pdrs = 126 initial + 51 produced
895 - US 75mm,
451 - 4.5" howitzers 321 initial + 130 produced
112 - 60 pdrs - 14 initial + 98 produced

They probably have 100 - 150 WWI era guns as well, 13 or 12 pdrs (76mm), which were brought out of storage in the summer of 1940.

On Aug 16 the British forces might look like this:

17 regular regiments, each with (3 x 25pdr batteries)
5 regiments RHA, each with (3 x 25pdr batteries)

82 Territorial regiments
10 territorial regiments each with (3 x 25pdr battery)
4 territorial regiments each with (1 x 4.5" how battery + 2 x 25pdr battery*) - (*1 battery is short 1 gun)
11 territorial regiments each with (1 x 4.5" how battery + 2 x 18pdr battery)
41 territorial regiments each with (1 x 4.5" how battery + 2 x 75mm battery)
14 territorial regiments each with (1 x 60 pdr battery + 2 x 75mm battery)
2 territorial regiments each with (1 x 75mm battery* + 2 x 13pdr battery) (*1 battery is short 1 gun)

Total used:
831 - 25 pdr
176 - 18 pdr
448 - 4.5" how
112 - 60 pdr
895 - US 75mm
32 - 13 pdr

There were something like 27 medium regiments formed, so a requirement for 432 pieces. The 434 available were just sufficient, especially when the production of June-September is added in.

321 4.5-inch howitzer
14 60-pdr guns (being converted to 4.5-inch)
5 4.5-inch/60-pdr guns (converted)
94 6-inch howitzer.

By mid August there would be 23 medium regiments:

26 - 4,5" gun = 5 initial + 21 produced
302 - 6" how = 94 initial + 208 produced
42 - 6" gun = 0 initial + 42 produced (I'm assuming that the 20 initial in UK are all static mounts)

Total = 23
18 medium regiments each with (16 x 6" how)
1 medium regiment with (14 x 6" how)
1 medium regiment with (16 x 4.5" gun)
1 medium regiment with (8 x 4.5" gun + 8 x 6" gun)
2 medium regiments each with (16 x 6" gun)


By the end of August there would be enough 4.5" guns & 6" howitzers to make 27 medium regiments.

[RichTO90]

126 18-pdr
269 18/25-pdr
90 25-pdr +252 produced June-September = 342

Rich, you have mis-calculated the 25 pdr production, there were also 299 of the 18 pdrs converted to 25 pdrs, + new 18 pdr production. There were 638 of 18 or 25 pdrs produced June - Aug, not 252.

Sorry, but that is incorrect. There was no new 18-pdr production. 18-pdr converted to 25-pdr is not 25-pdr production, although, yes, the 299 possible conversions counted as "expected increases" in the May 1940 accounting should have been included as a speculative addition, since I have been unable to confirm those figures. However, conversions of the 18/25-pdr totaled 611 prewar and 811 during the war (through 1941), so 1,422 altogether. Of those as of the May 1940 accounting, 704 were lost by the BEF, 269 remained in the UK, and 146 were overseas, so 1,119, leaving 303. It could be that 299 of those were completed June-September 1940 and the remaining four October 1940-sometime in 1941, but I doubt it.

Otherwise, production of new 25-pdr may be found in Table 22 (p. 176 of Postan, British War Production):

June - 42
July - 60
August - 72
September -78
Total - 252

If you have a source that states that the British converted 386 18/25-pdr June-September 1940 (the difference between the 252 25-pdr and your claim for 638) I would be curious to hear it.

Also the 4.5" howitzer (114mm) and the 60 pdr (127mm) were used as field artillery, not medium.

The 25-pdr was intended as a universal replacement for the 13-pdr, 18-pdr, and 4.5-inch howitzer. Under the 1939 and 1940 W.E.'s there were provisions for Field Regiments consisting of first 16 18-pdr and 8 4.5" and then later 12 18-pdr and 12 4.5". However, the 60-pdr was not ever considered a field piece and was only found in the Medium Regiments R.A. until it was replaced by the 5.5" gun-howitzer.

Cheers!

[Tom from Cornwall]

Rich,

As usual, fantastic information - thanks for sharing it with us all!

Cheers

Tom

[phylo_roadking]

On Aug 16 the British forces might look like this:

Freebird, if you take a look at David Newbold's thesis on anti-invasion preparations - then you find there what the siutation was, both in the text and in table form, per division/unit, in the Appendicies. Given, of course, that numbers manufactured might NOT actually be quite the same as number issued/in service....

[Freebird]

On Aug 16 the British forces might look like this:

Freebird, if you take a look at David Newbold's thesis on anti-invasion preparations - then you find there what the siutation was, both in the text and in table form, per division/unit, in the Appendicies. Given, of course, that numbers manufactured might NOT actually be quite the same as number issued/in service....

Hi Phylo, do you have a link?
Or a summary for the end of August?
Thanks!

Rich, you have mis-calculated the 25 pdr production, there were also expected 299 - 18 pdrs converted to 25 pdrs, + "expected increase" 18 pdr production. There were 638 of 18 or 25 pdrs produced June - Aug, not 252.

Sorry, but that is incorrect. There was no new 18-pdr production.

Indeed, I should have put "additional guns available" not "new production".
Going by the table, there were 126 - 18pdr guns on hand, and an "expected increase" of 63 - (NOT 18/25 pdrs)
Where would these 63 guns have come from?

There might be 3 sources of 18 pdrs
1.) Stocks loaned from Canada or the Dominions.
2.) Older 18 pdrs from UK reserve stocks needing refurbishment.
3.) Guns brought in from the "overseas" stocks (Nfld, Jamaica etc)

18-pdr converted to 25-pdr is not 25-pdr production, although, yes, the 299 possible conversions counted as "expected increases" in the May 1940 accounting should have been included as a speculative addition, since I have been unable to confirm those figures. However, conversions of the 18/25-pdr totaled 611 prewar and 811 during the war (through 1941), so 1,422 altogether. Of those as of the May 1940 accounting, 704 were lost by the BEF, 269 remained in the UK, and 146 were overseas, so 1,119, leaving 303. It could be that 299 of those were completed June-September 1940 and the remaining four October 1940-sometime in 1941, but I doubt it.

Otherwise, production of new 25-pdr may be found in Table 22 (p. 176 of Postan, British War Production):

June - 42
July - 60
August - 72
September -78
Total - 252

If you have a source that states that the British converted 386 18/25-pdr June-September 1940 (the difference between the 252 25-pdr and your claim for 638) I would be curious to hear it.

The origin for the 638 is simple, it is for 25, 18/25 & 18 pdrs
276 +299 + 63

Now with your actual numbers there were only 174 - 25pdrs produced June - Aug, not 276
I agree that 299 out of 303 of the 18/25's is unlikely, but given the urgency of the situation I can see them converting the bulk of them by Sept, say 250 of 303.
On the other hand, the total useable guns of the 303 might not change much, as some of the 303 - 18pdrs destined for conversion might be still useable as 18pdrs while waiting for conversion.

Also the 4.5" howitzer (114mm) and the 60 pdr (127mm) were used as field artillery, not medium.

The 25-pdr was intended as a universal replacement for the 13-pdr, 18-pdr, and 4.5-inch howitzer. Under the 1939 and 1940 W.E.'s there were provisions for Field Regiments consisting of first 16 18-pdr and 8 4.5" and then later 12 18-pdr and 12 4.5". However, the 60-pdr was not ever considered a field piece and was only found in the Medium Regiments R.A. until it was replaced by the 5.5" gun-howitzer.
Cheers!

I was suggesting that the 60 pounder batteries could be temporarily deployed with the Territorial regiments as a stopgap measure. The 4.5" how WAS used in the field regiments though.

I was taking issue with your calculation of a minimum shortage of 864 guns, that would mean that 36 of 82 territorial regiments had NO artillery. (Assuming that the regular, RHA and the other 46 had a full complement.) The actual situation was far better than that.

Lets recalculate then, for the end of August:
783 - 25pdrs = 359 initial + 424 produced (174 of 25pdr mk II + 250 conversions estimated)
189 - 18pdrs = 126 initial + 63 "increased stocks"
895 - US 75mm,
479 - 4.5" howitzers 321 initial + 158 increase (do you have a different figure for additional 4.5" how, Jun - Aug?)


Total is 2,346 - so a shortfall of 150 guns, not 864, meaning that only about 6 regiments would be short of artillery.

[JonS]

Indeed, I should have put "additional guns available" not "new production".
Going by the table, there were 126 - 18pdr guns on hand, and an "expected increase" of 63 - (NOT 18/25 pdrs)
Where would these 63 guns have come from?

As a semi-informed guess, I would suggest wooden-wheeled hows in storage taken out, re-furbed, and converted to pneumatic tires.

[phylo_roadking]

Hi Phylo, do you have a link?

If you go to the British Library website, and sign up (free) to the EThos System there for digitised, catalogued printed material, it's a free download.

Total is 2,346 - so a shortfall of 150 guns, not 864, meaning that only about 6 regiments would be short of artillery.

When you read it - and you have to read it, a LOT of the history of artillery distribution is in the main body of text - you're in for a big suprise if you think the situation was that good!

[RichTO90]

When you read it - and you have to read it, a LOT of the history of artillery distribution is in the main body of text - you're in for a big suprise if you think the situation was that good!

Cheers all!

[Freebird]

When you read it - and you have to read it, a LOT of the history of artillery distribution is in the main body of text - you're in for a big suprise if you think the situation was that good!

Well how many field artillery guns did they have then?

I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers deployed were lower, as I recall GHQ did hold a fair number back in reserve