This is an apolitical forum for discussions on the Axis nations, as well as the First and Second World Wars in general hosted by Marcus Wendel's Axis History Factbook in cooperation with Michael Miller's Axis Biographical Research, Christoph Awender's WW2 day by day, Dan Reinbold's Das Reich and Christian Ankerstjerne's Panzerworld.

Tiornu wrote:The LW had done rather poorly at Dunkerque. The anti-ship capability we associate with Stukas in the Med had not yet developed.
Tiornu wrote:Yes, definitely, the mine factor would way heavily in favor of the British, not the Germans.

Walter_Warlimont wrote:...Tiornu wrote:Yes, definitely, the mine factor would way heavily in favor of the British, not the Germans.
The Mine Barriers would have assisted the German Invasion Forces, but while not stopping the Royal Navy completely, those same Mine Barriers would have prevented them from entering en masse, the lanes that were being used by the Invasion Craft, until they could have been cleared away.
(No Source is Available, as That is Just Common Sense)


Walter_Warlimont wrote:You guys really have no clue as to the use of the "Mine Barriers". do you?
Die Lage der geplanten Sperren sind aus der Abbildung (oben) zu ersehen. Alle Sperren sollten in mehreren Reihen geworfen werden. Zusätzlich sollten Gebiete dicht unter der englischen Küste durch Schnellboote mit Minen verseucht werden. Auch die Verminung aus der Luft durch Flugzeuge der 9. Fliegerdivision wurde genau geplant.
Die Sperren SW1, SW2, SW3 und SW0, die im August geworfen wurden, standen in keinem direkten Zusammenhang mit »Seelöwe«, waren aber in die Planungen mit einbezogen. Am 31. August gingen auf der Sperre SW1 die britischen Zerstörer Esk und Ivanhoe verloren, der Zerstörer Express wurde schwer beschädigt. Die Wirkung dieses Verlustes auf britischer Seite war kaum zu unterschätzen. Allerdings nicht nur in demoralisierender Hinsicht. Die britschen Einheiten hatten nämlich ebenfalls den Auftrag, Minen zu werfen, um den Aufmarsch der Invasionsflotte zu stören. Es darf davon ausgegangen werden, dass mit Beginn der »Seelöwe«-Operation das Landungsgebiet innerhalb kürzester Zeit von englischer Seite vermint worden wäre, und dass deutsche Minensuch- und räumeinheiten dagegen nichts mehr hätten unternehmen können.
Im Gegensatz zu den anderen Teilstreitkräften bewertete das OKM den Wert der Minensperren daher überaus kritisch. Man wandte ein, dass die Sperren nur wirksam blieben, wenn eine Räumung von britischer Seite her verhindert werden konnte. Für diese Aufgabe konnten die eigenen Kräfte nur über einen langen Zeitraum hin verstärkt werden. Im Nachhinein ist festzustellen, dass die Räumung von Minensperren auf britischer wie auf deutscher Seite keine konkreten Planungen gab.
http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/ks ... frames.htm

Walter_Warlimont wrote:Rich, it's times like this you remind me so much of Leandros.
I can't read German.
Now I gotta go copy & paste 17 pictures of maps to support my position about the "Mine Barriers"
It's days like this, I wish I had never left my mother's womb.
Thanks Rich, Thanks.

RichTO90 wrote:Walter_Warlimont wrote:Rich, it's times like this you remind me so much of Leandros.
I can't read German.
What the heck are you doing in Germany then? Rear detachment for people in the sandbox?![]()
Actually I translated part of this in an earlier thread. Basically it says that it was planned that all the barriers should be in multiple rows of mines....so multiply the 450-odd kilometers of barrier by X number of rows. Thats a LOT of mines and a lot of time to lay them.
It goes on to say that the mines in the SW barriers laid in August did sink two British destroyers and damge a third, which was great. But they suddenly realized that the British could just as easily lay mines to obstruct the German invasion fleet - if not more easily considering they could lay them close to a protected shore and that they had a heck of a lot more minelaying capability than the Germans did. The loss also alerted the British to the threat and the began to apply their not to insignificant minesweeping capability to the problem (that's my aside BTW). Rohwer then basically that was typical for the plan....they came up with an idea and suddenly realized they simply didn't have the assets the Britsih had to counter it so their threat wasn't really credible.
Or you could search out my original translation and read it.
Now I gotta go copy & paste 17 pictures of maps to support my position about the "Mine Barriers"
Why?The link I provided includes a map of the barrier plan and I also provided a rather nice summary of them? Your description was incorrect, either your memory or your source was badly flawed. Or maybe both?
It's days like this, I wish I had never left my mother's womb.
Thanks Rich, Thanks.
TANSTAAFL dude.

Walter_Warlimont wrote:You guys really have no clue as to the use of the "Mine Barriers". do you?
Walter_Warlimont wrote:There were to have been "Mine Fields" layed at each end of the approaches to the channel granted, but these "Mine Barriers" were to form the lanes in which the Invasion Craft were to "Drive Through" for lack of a better term & if I remember correctly (Man I Hate Abbreviations) the mines in the "Mine Barriers" were to be placed at 10 meter intervals. (Wish I knew what that distance is in feet).

Bronsky wrote:...
Then of course there is the question of British minefields, which I haven't seen addressed in these threads so far.

Walter_Warlimont wrote:Actually, the British DID in fact lay a Mine barrier of their own along the beachline in front of the very beaches where the invasion craft were to approach.
It's effectiveness however would have been anyones guess.
TANSTAAFL????????
No Comprende Mon Ami.

LWD wrote:Bronsky wrote:...
Then of course there is the question of British minefields, which I haven't seen addressed in these threads so far.
It has been brought up a couple of times but not recently. One note of interest is that from what I've seen a lot of the German mine laying ships were double duty types that also did mine sweeping. That means they would have been in demand for both functions during the invasion. Note that these are also both high risk functions that will result in losses even in the abscence of strong British opposition. Since some of both operations would be taking place in range of British shore batteries even without the RN and RAF one could expect substantial losses to these boats.

Bronsky wrote:[4. Taking the series of "B" fields. Dieppe to Newhaven is 64 nautical miles, let's call it 50. That's 9,260 mines at 10m intervals. In other words, almost the entire German stockpile will be absorbed to do just that very flimsy line.

RichTO90 wrote:And yes, just about any ship could be adapted as a minelayer, all of the German T-Boot and Z-Boot could carry mines IIRC, and V-Boot and S-Boot were also routinely used as such. The problem is - as I continue to harp on - they can't do everything at once. A R-Boot cannot simultaneously be an assault troop carrier with the Vorasuabteilungen, be a minelayer, be a minesweeper, and be an escort vessel. It just doesn't work and something has to give. In the same vein, the 7-8 Z-Boot and 17 T-Boot cannot simultaneously guard the minelayers, escort the invasion barges, engage Royal Navy warships and minesweepers, and line mines themselves. There are simply too many tasks for two few vessels and experienced crews.

leandros wrote:...
Of course you are correct about this. But, as with the Luftwaffe, not all KM units would necessarily have to perform all tasks simultaneously.
....
As for mining - Klee writes:
"For flank protection of the crossing routes there were planned laying tactical minefields. The average distance between mines within the various fields would be 30-55 meters. It was planned to integrate the French-British minefields in the area Dover-Calais and Dunkirk into the total German mine planning. By Sept. 4th 6.800 mines (among them 800 fakes) and the necessary equipment had been made ready. Delivery to departure ports to be ready by Sept. 19th. The mining operation should take place in the period S-8 to S-2".
Looking in at Rohwer and Hümmelchen one can see that mining was going all the time, also before the period mentioned above:...

LWD wrote: They are also very likely to encounter British opposition which will have the following impacts:
1) Some of the newly fields will be swept. Note that the British will know where they have been swept the Germans may not.
2) German mine layers will be sunk and damaged. Anything that takes significant damage will not be available for futher mine laying, sweeping, escort, or transportation duties.
3) An effort of this magnatude is very likely to set off some warning bells in British intellignece agencies. Not only does this telegraph Sea Lion to some extent but it also suggest some British counter measures. For instance laying mine fields perpendicular to the German ones. This may catch some of the mine layers if done before the German fields are complete and adds more duties for the German mine sweepers.

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