Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

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fredleander
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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#196

Post by fredleander » 23 Sep 2015, 13:34

Knouterer wrote:To get back to Smith's book for a second, on page 120 he writes about minelaying operation Hannelore on the night of 8-9 September by the 2nd Torpedo Boat Flotilla (T-5, T-6, T-7 and T-8):

"This time they were extremely fortunate to escape both detection and annihilation; only more bad weather saved them." (because strong RN destroyer forces were out that night)

That would suggest that if the weather had been better, and if they had been escorting much bigger and slower Minenschiffe, detection and annihilation would have been almost certain.
At this night two strong RN forces were out, each a cruiser/destroyer combinaton looking for German mine-layers. Their only achievement was that the cruiser HMS Galatea hit a mine. Typically, the two forces didn't leave their bases untill after dark due to the fear of Luftwaffe attacks. RN vessels had standing orders not to venture out in the Channel in daylight. Lessons learned during the Dunkirk evacuation and the "Kanalkampf".

Fred
River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book about Operation Sealion:
https://www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - an eight-book series on the Pacific War:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D3 ... rw_dp_labf

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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#197

Post by Knouterer » 24 Sep 2015, 12:43

Another lesson learned during the Kanalkampf period was that while the Luftwaffe units assigned to the task could inflict serious losses on convoys of slow-moving and (practically) defenceless colliers and other small freighters, they could not stop them.

From 1 July to 9 August the Kanalkampffuehrer, Oberst Johannes Fink, dispatched 1,300 anti-shipping sorties, supported by Freya and including the main effort of Richthofen's Stukas, and they managed to sink 28 ships totaling 54,109 GRT. Of course many others were damaged.
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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#198

Post by sitalkes » 25 Sep 2015, 09:55

you mean they could not stop them at night- the convoys did stop in daylight and the warships based at Dover were moved to the Portsmouth and Nore commands.

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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#199

Post by Knouterer » 25 Sep 2015, 10:28

Ocean-going freighters were routed north, but the Channel convoys, codenamed CE (Channel Eastbound) or CW (Channel Westbound), consisting mostly of colliers, continued (if briefly suspended after the heavy losses of CW8), by day and by night. They had to, because coal was used not only for heating, but also to generate electricity, so without it the whole war industry in Southern England would have ground to a halt, and the railroads had already declared themselves unable to transport the quantities needed.

See http://www.amazon.co.uk/Coastal-Convoys ... al+Convoys

From 13 August, the Luftwaffe turned its attention to other things, and the massive aerial attacks on the CW/CE convoys ceased, but the "E-boats" remained a potent threat, more so certainly than the German heavy guns which started shelling the convoys on the 22nd but never hit anything (until 1944). Nevertheless, those bombardments must have been nerve-wracking for the ships' crews.
Last edited by Knouterer on 25 Sep 2015, 18:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#200

Post by Knouterer » 25 Sep 2015, 11:09

From Wikipedia, about the Battersea Power Station (A Station completed 1935):

"The London Power Company's first of these super power stations was planned for the Battersea area, on the south bank of the River Thames in London. The proposal was made in 1927, for a station built in two stages and capable of generating 400 megawatts (MW) of electricity when complete. The site chosen was a 15-acre (61,000 m2) plot of land which had been the site of the reservoirs for the former Southwark and Vauxhall Waterworks Company. The site was chosen for its proximity to the River Thames for cooling water and coal delivery, and because it was in the heart of London, the station's immediate supply area."
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#201

Post by thaddeus_c » 07 Oct 2015, 13:15

the Minenleger Projekt http://german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ship ... index.html was for much larger ship than used during the war.

my speculative scenario would be construct ferries similar to Tannenberghttp://german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ship ... index.html with more powerful engines and able to convert to minelayer

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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#202

Post by Knouterer » 07 Oct 2015, 16:20

I mentioned those on page 10 of this thread:
Knouterer wrote:Further to the minelaying capacity of both sides:

Since just about any vessel could be equipped to lay mines, there was a certain reluctance in the 1930s to spend money on purpose-built minelayers. The Kriegsmarine had none; a class of four fast (28 knots) and heavily armed offensive minelayers of around 6,000t, carrying 400 mines, was planned but annulled on the outbreak of war.
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#203

Post by Knouterer » 22 Oct 2015, 11:58

Some data about the planned offensive minelayers, from Gröner et al., Die deutschen Kriegsschiffe 1815-1945, Vol. 3.

They had a powerful anti-aircraft battery with 8 x 105 mm and 8 x 37 mm. Compare with the British Abdiel class which was smaller but faster:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdiel-class_minelayer
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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#204

Post by Knouterer » 13 Dec 2015, 21:20

Knouterer wrote: In that context, fishermen repeatedly complained to the Admiralty about RN ships sinking floating mines by piercing the air chamber(s) with rifle fire without detonating them; there were a number of cases were trawlers were blown sky high when they dragged up such sunken mines.
Some of the floaters proved quite resistant, quote from the War Diary of the 521st Coast Regt. (WO 166/1724), HQ at Newhaven:

"15 Nov. 1940, 1300: M.Y. Adventuress left harbour and exploded a mine off Telscombe after expending 547 rounds S.A.A."

The yacht "Adventuress" (322 t, launched 1898, requisitioned 13/9/1939) was Examination Service vessel N.45 based at Newhaven.

(picture from: http://www.clydeships.co.uk/view.php?ref=18128 )
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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#205

Post by Knouterer » 29 Feb 2016, 12:01

A picture that illustrates the difficulties the minelaying program would have faced, from R. Wheatley, Operation Sea Lion, (1958).
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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#206

Post by Knouterer » 29 Feb 2016, 12:39

It would be interesting to know when the above picture was taken, but Wheatley gives no source or date. In any case, Bomber Command and Coastal Command carried out increasingly heavy attacks on all the invasion ports as more shipping was concentrated there. Sunday 22 Sept., for example, was a fairly active day with happily (for the RAF) no losses.
Page from L. Donnelly DFM, The Other Few:
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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#207

Post by Knouterer » 11 Mar 2016, 09:17

Even the Ansons of Coastal Command with their very modest bomb load (500 lbs.) were sent to bomb the embarkation ports. 217 Squadron flew almost 200 bombing missions in September, mostly against Brest; remarkably, not a single Anson was lost. Pilots reported lots of flak bursting in front of them and believed that the gunners were aiming off too much because they did not realize that their targets were about 50 mph slower than the average RAF bomber.

Source: Roy Conyers Nesbit, An Expendable Squadron, p. 39-40.
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#208

Post by Knouterer » 12 Mar 2016, 09:08

A further remark about the tides in the Channel: on page 9 of this thread, Phylo Roadking posted a tidal chart, but without understanding anything about it, judging from his comments. In fact it shows the currents/streams as they run 4 hours before high water at Dover. Below a chart showing the currents 2 hours after high water, the time when the German invaders were supposed to hit the beaches.
For a complete set, see http://montymariner.co.uk/tide-stream-charts/733-2/

The numbers indicate the speed of the current at spring and neap tide, for example 16,28 means 1.6 knots at neap tide and 2.8 at spring tide, when the tidal streams are fastest. At other times, of course, it would be somewhere in between.

Pilot's Guides and other such publications warn that the times and levels of tides cannot be predicted exactly; strong winds, for example, can make an appreciable difference one way or the other.
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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#209

Post by Knouterer » 03 Apr 2016, 16:56

fredleander wrote: RN vessels had standing orders not to venture out in the Channel in daylight.
Fred
It's really surprising how many commanders of RN vessels disregarded these (alleged ...) "standing orders" and did just that, all through August and September. For example, on the morning of 22 August, Convoy CE9 was passing through the Straits of Dover, escorted by the destroyers Fernie and Garth (Hunt class) and the armed trawlers Greenfly and Gatinais (French), and possibly other RN vessels, when at precisely 09:22 the first shells from the German heavy guns exploded around the convoy. It remained under fire until about noon, but suffered no losses.
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#210

Post by Knouterer » 03 Apr 2016, 17:21

Knouterer wrote:Ocean-going freighters were routed north, but the Channel convoys, codenamed CE (Channel Eastbound) or CW (Channel Westbound), consisting mostly of colliers, continued (if briefly suspended after the heavy losses of CW8), by day and by night.
Hewitt (see top of page) gives the total number of CW/CE convoys in 1940 (from July) as 33. These included 550 ships, of which 19 were lost. Naturally, all convoys had some RN vessels as escorts.

Map from Hewitt, p. 85:
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