OP Weserübung 1940

[Juha Tompuri]

It does indeed - and it does give ANOTHER location, a third....N 55 18, E 12 48

FWIW, a second

But as the Germans only accepted 3 nm it aready was one nautical into Swedish water according to the Swedes.

When did the announce of increasing the Swedish territorial waters from three to four nm take place?
Was it "internationally accepted", or just a Swedish "announcement"?

Regards, Juha

[John T]

But as the Germans only accepted 3 nm it aready was one nautical into Swedish water according to the Swedes.

When did the announce of increasing the Swedish territorial waters from three to four nm take place?
Was it "internationally accepted", or just a Swedish "announcement"?

Regards, Juha

Anounced 1779
pretty long time to object when Hitler did so 1939

Cheers
John

[phylo_roadking]

It does indeed - and it does give ANOTHER location, a third....N 55 18, E 12 48

FWIW, a second

Actually, three...
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1770210
1/ N 55° 17', E 12° 47' - London Gazette, 1902.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1770278
2/ N 55° 18’, E 12° 47’ - your source.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1770282
3/ N 55° 17.5', E 12° 47.5' - London Gazette, 1910.


John, thanks for the map; you might be interested in comparing it with this WWI-era map, actually from 1916...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-p_rTe7kVaCg/U ... CF4250.JPG

...as I presume it's a Swedish map - and yet still illustrates the three-mile-limit rather than the "new" four mile one? (And incidently the Danish three-mile limit too, for context; maybe it's just me - but would a four-mile limit have given Sweden control of the shipping channel in the Oresund???)

Also interesting to see the much smaller marked limits of the early 20th century hand-sounded Falsterbo reef as compared to the more modern map, I presume a product of echo sounding and more modern techniques. Notice that the Falsterbo lightship isn't marked; this was a temporary "seasonal" fixture until the modern vessel was put on station in 1931...

But looking at the other Swedish lightships on the "tillfallig farled", the Oresund shipping channel? - I presume it would be somewhere on the channel line immediately south of the Falsterbo reef.

[Juha Tompuri]

It does indeed - and it does give ANOTHER location, a third....N 55 18, E 12 48

FWIW, a second

Actually, three...
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1770210
1/ N 55° 17', E 12° 47' - London Gazette, 1902.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1770278
2/ N 55° 18’, E 12° 47’ - your source.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1770282
3/ N 55° 17.5', E 12° 47.5' - London Gazette, 1910.

1st:

London Gazette listed the lightship's early 20th century position as N 55 17, E 12 47.

2nd:

Position N 55 18, E 12 48

3rd:

This site gives to location as N 55° 18’ E 12° 47’

4th:

1910 London Gazette-listed location...rounded up - North 55° 17.5, East 12° 47.5...

Regards, Juha

[Juha Tompuri]

But as the Germans only accepted 3 nm it aready was one nautical into Swedish water according to the Swedes.

When did the announce of increasing the Swedish territorial waters from three to four nm take place?
Was it "internationally accepted", or just a Swedish "announcement"?

Regards, Juha

Anounced 1779
pretty long time to object when Hitler did so 1939

Thanks.
Was that claim respected during the WWI?

Regards, Juha

[phylo_roadking]

Was that claim respected during the WWI?

Juha - it was still being debated at the UN as of 1955! See page 12 of 21 here...http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/documentatio ... add1-6.pdf

John...

The orange line is an attempt to follow the four nautical line

...here's a wrinkle...also from that document -

According to the Swedish view, which has been given legislative
form in a long series of regulations, the Swedish territorial sea
extends to four nautical miles from the straight lines joining the
headlands of the coast or of islands along the coast and reefs not
permanently covered by the sea. In bays and gulfs, the base line
for measuring the territorial sea is across their mouth.

The base lines which form the starting point for measuring the
territorial sea coincide with the outer limits of internal waters—a
principle which has, moreover, been expressly laid down in the
Swedish regulations.

As we can see from that WWI map - there was a small cluster of reefs permanently above water off Falsterbo, labelled Måkläppen; these are the island(s) now connected since WWII to the main peninsula by a sandbank...but according to those above-mentioned Swedish rules, their four-mile limit...or even the three mile limit...would have been measured from there, not from the peninsula...

http://www.lansstyrelsen.se/skane/SiteC ... a_2008.pdf

Furthest out in the south-west, the Skåne quadrilateral ends in a strange sand formation, a 5 km long, narrow island arc, best known for its rich bird life. Måkläppen is in principle the country’s oldest nature reserve, as it was placed under protection as early as 1902. In the 1930s Måkläppen, then an island, had an area of only 50x100 metres and lay about 1 km off Nabben. With the continuous shifting of sand, Måkläppen has since increased in size and attached itself to the mainland and is moving northwards.

[John T]

John, thanks for the map; you might be interested in comparing it with this WWI-era map, actually from 1916...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-p_rTe7kVaCg/U ... CF4250.JPG

Great map, yes
Due to the annual Falsterbo horse show I have walked the shores of Falsterbo more than once.
(East side is actually an old AA range)

Especially during WW1 Sweden where very pro German, around 1916 I suppose Swedish Navy would have aided in the minelaying even between 3 and four nautical.
During ww2 Sweden prefered to lay her own field (and the sub-net outside Viken ) complying to German wishes but at least technically under own soveregnity.

And as we are way out off topic, British submarines oparating from Helsinki where the main threat during ww1 !



Good Nigh
/John

[phylo_roadking]

Well, to return to the general vicinity of the topic...and the aspect of the Germans mining Swedish waters in late November 1939 -

We now know that the Germans did seemingly mine just inside Sweden's claimed four-mile limit in the first week of the war - then on the 14th of November threatened to extend this minefield inside Sweden's four-mile limit, a threat related to the course of negotiations over the iron ore trade with Germany - then on the 25th of November the Germans did so, leading to Swedish diplomatic protests regarding the action on the 27th of November.

We don't as yet know the identity of the vessel(s) that did so on the 25th; it would be nice to fill in this missing fact. Can anyone help with this?

[Juha Tompuri]

And as we are way out off topic...

Not that much, as the capabilities of the neutral states (here Denmark and Sweden) in controlling their waters during WWI might have affected to the German decision not to respect the Swedish claimed territorial waters border.

...British submarines oparating from Helsinki where the main threat during ww1 !

I think it was just the threat of UK subs ( ) entering Baltic Sea via Danish/Swedish waters (like in WWI)

Regards, Juha

[John T]

We don't as yet know the identity of the vessel(s) that did so on the 25th; it would be nice to fill in this missing fact. Can anyone help with this?

As i wrote yesterday:

If you read Minenshife (Kutzlebe et al) p 34, Kaiser added 160 UMA East of Falsterbo rev, North to "Swedish territorial waters"
But as the Germans only accepted 3 nm it aready was one nautical into Swedish water according to the Swedes.

The book does not explicitly says the day but it fits well in the timeframe.

Cheers
/John

[John T]

And as we are way out off topic...

Not that much, as the capabilities of the neutral states (here Denmark and Sweden) in controlling their waters during WWI might have affected to the German decision not to respect the Swedish claimed territorial waters border.

Well, according to Salmon "Scandinavia and the great powers"
The Danes had mined their own territorial waters to such an extent that German navy where locked in and could not exit through the Kattegat. THis was done on German request.

And that German navy would not make the same msstake during ww2 and gain controll of Denmark.


cheers
/John

[Natter]

So, from your better information on this aspect, I'm sure you can tell us who was supplying the information? And who supplied the information on the Oscarborg Fortress? And in particular the torpedo tubes there?

Would simply read the 13:th "anhang" containing situation reports from the German intelligence on the situation in most Norwegian harbours and among those detailed information on Norwegian costal defenses.
And the torpedo battery is in that list.

...and are they specifically talking about Oscarborg's underwater torpedo tubes....or the above-ground torpedo tubes at Kvarven Fort at Bergen?

Here is an article in the norwegian (Oslo) newspaper Aftenposten from october 8 1901, concerning the Oscarsborg torpedobattery.

As the article is written in rather "old" norwegian and in a fractur-like font, I struggle with an exact tranlation, but roughly it just announces that the torpedobattery is finished and taken over by the navy's mine warfare department.
Also, it mentions the department of defence allocating additional funds of NOK 11.000,- to cover extra work demanded by the overtaking-comission (including concrete plastering of the battery and expansion of the water-reservoir).

Ie: It's not unlikely that the battery's presence should have been known to the germans... (the battery might also have been mentioned in other articles before and during it's construction).

[phylo_roadking]

If you read Minenshife (Kutzlebe et al) p 34, Kaiser added 160 UMA East of Falsterbo rev, North to "Swedish territorial waters"
But as the Germans only accepted 3 nm it aready was one nautical into Swedish water according to the Swedes.

The book does not explicitly says the day but it fits well in the timeframe.

Possibly...also, it possibly wasn't the only "demonstration" the Germans made http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/39-11.htm

24.– 25.11.1939
Nordsee
Einsatz des B.d.A. (VAdm. Densch) auf Schwerem Kreuzer Lützow (ex Panzerschiff Deutschland) mit den Kreuzern Köln und Leipzig und der 6. T-Flottille mit Leopard, Seeadler, Iltis und Wolf zur Handelskriegführung im Skagerrak.