RAF raids on German Air Fields during BoB

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Carl Schwamberger
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Re: RAF raids on German Air Fields during BoB

#16

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 22 Sep 2013, 23:19

Thanks.

61 lost out of 1097 sorties probablly hits the 5% loss rate the USAAF hoped to avoid. Certainly a sorry record if the German loss is accurate. The attacks on the ports look a lot more productive.

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Re: RAF raids on German Air Fields during BoB

#17

Post by PMN1 » 23 Sep 2013, 13:03

Something else to think of when discussing bombing airfields at that time.

From ‘Dowding of Fighter Command’ by Vincent Orange

Page 116

By now, Dowding had foreseen that attacks would be made on his aerodromes and wondered what would happen to fighters dispersed around them. In his usual way, he urged a test and after long argument was allowed to have 30 obsolete Bristol Bulldog fighters spread in a circle on Salisbury Plain. They were attacked for a week in July 1938 by various bombers from high and low level, with large and small bombs, incendiaries and machine gun fire. At the end of the week, Dowding composed a report more devastating than the bombing: 22 tons of high explosive bombs, 1,000 incendiaries and 7,000 rounds of machine gun fire had destroyed three bulldogs, damaged one beyond repair, left 15 with minor damage and 11 completely unharmed. These shockingly bad results indicated that dispersal alone might give fighters a fair chance of survival, unless the Luftwaffe proved to be more accurate than Bomber Command. The test also demonstrated the appalling gulf between theory and practice in RAF doctrine with regard to bombing.


Carl Schwamberger
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Re: RAF raids on German Air Fields during BoB

#18

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 23 Sep 2013, 16:47

Sounds like my fathers description. His bomber group came to Britain in mid 1943 expecting the tests they had seen in training, and their bombing practice to be reproduced over France. The actual results in 1943 were severely disappointing. In picking through the literature for the 9th Bomber Division/9th Air Force I get the impression the earlier experience of the 15th Af over Africa and Italy had not been asorbed by the new air groups training in the US. By many changes in tactics & techniques they did eventually reach something akin to the original expectations.

Dowding was a bit of a radical, actually attempting realistic bombing tests, vs over structured 'lab bench style tests, or calling target range practice tests.

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Re: RAF raids on German Air Fields during BoB

#19

Post by phylo_roadking » 23 Sep 2013, 17:10

These shockingly bad results indicated that dispersal alone might give fighters a fair chance of survival, unless the Luftwaffe proved to be more accurate than Bomber Command
And of course - given that the opportunites to attempt to destoy LW airfields were strictly limited by the weather...good enough to fly and acquire the target...yet 7/10th cloud cover to provide protection...

There's a good chance that the LW aircraft at the planned target WERE indeed "dispersed" - to somewhere over England! 8O
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Re: RAF raids on German Air Fields during BoB

#20

Post by EKB » 26 Sep 2013, 08:35

Carl Schwamberger wrote:Ok, so in 1940 it was mostly Blenheims flying these missions, and they were taking losses. Any indication of the weapon infliciting the losses? Aircraft, FLAK?

I'd often wondered why the airfields were not attacked all out. This suggests it would have been impractical.

The RAF raid at Aalborg symbolized the outcome of targeting well-defended airfields. Ironically that mission took place on Adlertag (Eagle Day) in 1940; a pinprick attack compared to the massed airpower over England. I fetched this description from Graham Warner's operational history of the Blenheim …

" That 13 August saw another disaster befall the hard-hit 82 Squadron, which had already been virtually wiped out on the raid to Gembloux on 17 May. This time it was a medium-level daylight raid on the German-held airfield at Aalborg in north-east Denmark, the base for the Ju.88s that were attacking England. The 82 Squadron crews were mainly fresh replacements for those lost on the Gembloux raid.
Twelve Blenheims led by 82's new CO, W/Cdr E. C. de Virac Lart set out at 0840. A Flight from Watton and B Flight from the Bodney satellite, soon forming the standard four RAF 'vics', each of three aircraft. Approaching the Danish coast, one aircraft (Sgt Baron in R3915) turned back from the tight formation over the North Sea. (The mission was near the limit of the aircraft's range, and the pilot calculated that he had insufficient fuel - he may have left the mixture on 'Rich', or his fuel gauges may have been inaccurate. He was charged and due to appear before a Court Martial, but was killed in another operation before his case could be heard).
The 11 remaining Blenheims reached the Danish coast at Sodervig some 50 miles south of their intended landfall at the mouth of the complex of fjords that led east to Aalborg airfield and seaplane base. The Observer in the CO's aircraft could only navigate for the long sector over the North Sea by creating an air-plot from dead-reckoning methods, using the forecast wind speed and direction. Unfortunately he was 2 degrees to starboard of his intended track; other Observers had noticed this, but with strict radio silence in force could not alert the leader, and attempts to contact W/Cdr Lart by Aldis lamp went unnoticed. His Observer was relatively inexperienced and appears to have been chosen because he was a commissioned officer.
Consequently the formation flew north-north-east over the sunny Danish countryside for more than 20 minutes, heading directly for Aalborg, thus giving the Germans plenty of warning. Airfield defence flak opened up the formation and shot down five of the Blenheims in a few minutes, one (R3821 of P/O Hale) crashing on the airfield. Then nine Me.109s from the Aalborg-based 5/JG-77 fell upon the Blenheims and soon shot down the remaining six so that not a single aircraft escaped the slaughter.
Of the 33 brave crewmen who attacked the airfield so boldly, 20 lost their lives and 13 were captured, eight of whom were seriously injured. The cost in human lives and the traumas of injuries, or almost five years of captivity, endured by the surviving crews was extreme. Although the raid itself was a disastrous failure, as little damage was caused at the airfield, the courage shown by the Blenheim crews did have the side effect of encouraging the formation of a resistance movement by the Danes, who had been compliant to the German occupation before witnessing this almost sacrificial attack."

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Re: RAF raids on German Air Fields during BoB

#21

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 28 Sep 2013, 04:15

That last sounds like one of the USAAF raids on a Dutch electric generator in 1943. One bomber aborted over the North Sea. The other ten did not return.

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Re: RAF raids on German Air Fields during BoB

#22

Post by sunbury2 » 28 Sep 2013, 06:49

In July, 6 Blenheims of 107 Squadron did a daylight raid to attack the airfield of 11./KG1 at Amiens. 5 Blenheims were shot down by flak, 3 crews were killed, two crews became POW's. They did no damage. Source is Stephen Bungay's The Most Dangerous Enemy. p151

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Re: RAF raids on German Air Fields during BoB

#23

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 28 Sep 2013, 09:14

What altitude were these Blenheim raids made at? What was typical?

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Re: RAF raids on German Air Fields during BoB

#24

Post by Urmel » 28 Sep 2013, 14:48

Not much fun being on Blenheims. 107 then of course went on to be wiped out again on Malta in late 41.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

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Re: RAF raids on German Air Fields during BoB

#25

Post by EKB » 28 Sep 2013, 21:24

Carl Schwamberger wrote:What altitude were these Blenheim raids made at? What was typical?

I'm not sure if there was a favored altitude in the ground attack formations of Blenheim squadrons, but German pilots often noted the height for interceptions. There are online listings of known claims and losses compiled by Tony Wood.

The most pressing technical disadvantage of the Blenheim was the meagre weapons package. The speed - or lack thereof - could have been offset to some extent with sufficient long-range fighter protection, had it been available in 1940.

Four years later, the Beaufighters and Mosquitos that replaced the Blenheim in the Coastal Command Strike Wings were essentially, heavily armed gunships bristling with cannons and rockets. They also had a Mustang overwatch and the important benefit of hindsight.

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Re: RAF raids on German Air Fields during BoB

#26

Post by phylo_roadking » 29 Sep 2013, 00:45

The most pressing technical disadvantage of the Blenheim was the meagre weapons package. The speed - or lack thereof - could have been offset to some extent with sufficient long-range fighter protection, had it been available in 1940.
Which is why...as noted above...they tried to make up for both by keeping to cloud cover, both in their airfield attacks and right down to the Dortmund-Ems Canal if possible.
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Re: RAF raids on German Air Fields during BoB

#27

Post by sunbury2 » 29 Sep 2013, 14:12

Urmel wrote:Not much fun being on Blenheims. 107 then of course went on to be wiped out again on Malta in late 41.
To be posted to 2 Group Bomber Command in the summer of 1940 was not conducive to a long life. Many brave men perished in obsolescent machines, trying to buy time for those who came later.

EKB gave the example of the Denmark massacre of Blenheims, that same squadron (No. 82) had been slaughtered in May during the Battle of France, losing 11 out of 12 machines in that engagement also.

On July 9th, 12 Blenheims from No 21 and 57 Squadrons did a daylight raid on the airfield at Stavanger, Norway. They successfully bombed the airfield, then were set upon by approx 30 Me 109's and Me 110's. 7 Blenheims were shot down and the remaining 5 were badly damaged but made it back to the UK.

Yet night raids had small losses, so it is hard to understand the continuing daylight raids. Especially 82 Squadron's daylight attack to Denmark that EKD detailed. In no way is that a criticism of the men who flew the missions.

Some Blenheim pilots had charmed lives, the legendary Basil Embry, the Australian Hughie Edwards who won his VC, DSO and DFC flying Blenheims. In 1941, Blenheims were used successfully for low level attacks, losses were still high at times but not crippling, the attacks on Cologne Power station in August that won Wing Commander Nicols of 114 Squadron his VC is a prime example.

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Re: RAF raids on German Air Fields during BoB

#28

Post by Urmel » 29 Sep 2013, 15:06

Add Air Marshal Ivor Broom to that list, I guess.

http://www.rafweb.org/Biographies/Broom_IG.htm
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: RAF raids on German Air Fields during BoB

#29

Post by phylo_roadking » 29 Sep 2013, 18:41

Yet night raids had small losses, so it is hard to understand the continuing daylight raids.
Take a look at the targets...and the dates. They're virtually ALL connected in SOME way with the BoB and Sealion...and were not targets that could be located at night. The attacks may have been less than successful - but they had to be attempted.

As an example - most mentions of the Dortmund-Ems Canal as a target in 1940 forget to mention that German barges were heading to the coast along the Canal...

I'm sure that the aircrews themselves...those that survived!...would far rather not have flown them - seeing that they often went out AGAIN that night bargebusting!
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Re: RAF raids on German Air Fields during BoB

#30

Post by viskinge » 24 Nov 2013, 10:19

Here is more details about the attack on Aalborg. Under the Danish text there is an English translation

http://www.airmen.dk/p014aalb.htm

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