Panzer Lehr Tanks in Normandy

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Leutnant Von Historian
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Panzer Lehr Tanks in Normandy

#1

Post by Leutnant Von Historian » 24 Oct 2014, 14:10

Hi, I'm new here. I have a question. I had done a lot of research regarding Panzer Lehr tanks in Normandy. The information is surprisingly blurry, while the Panzer Lehr is a very famous formation. Some of my research show that the Panzer Lehr in Normandy is a very powerful force. While after researching deeper I find information indicating that they don't have their Panther Battalions in Normandy. Is this true? What are the tanks and more specifically their whole force have in Normandy. Can anyone tell me what variants their equipment is?
Thanks in advance.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Panzer Lehr Tanks in Normandy

#2

Post by Michael Kenny » 24 Oct 2014, 16:49

Put Lehr Panther Normandy in this search box


http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/search


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Attrition
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Re: Panzer Lehr Tanks in Normandy

#3

Post by Attrition » 24 Oct 2014, 22:42

http://web.telia.com/~u18313395/normand ... gerob.html

I was going to add this for Zetterling's data but it doesn't work. Does anyone know if it has a new address?

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Kingfish
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Re: Panzer Lehr Tanks in Normandy

#4

Post by Kingfish » 25 Oct 2014, 00:21

Leutnant Von Historian wrote:Hi, I'm new here. I have a question. I had done a lot of research regarding Panzer Lehr tanks in Normandy. The information is surprisingly blurry, while the Panzer Lehr is a very famous formation. Some of my research show that the Panzer Lehr in Normandy is a very powerful force. While after researching deeper I find information indicating that they don't have their Panther Battalions in Normandy. Is this true? What are the tanks and more specifically their whole force have in Normandy. Can anyone tell me what variants their equipment is?
Thanks in advance.
Lehr's Panthers featured prominently in the division's counterattack at Le Desert on July 11th
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.
~Babylonian Proverb

RichTO90
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Re: Panzer Lehr Tanks in Normandy

#5

Post by RichTO90 » 25 Oct 2014, 04:17

Kingfish wrote:Lehr's Panthers featured prominently in the division's counterattack at Le Desert on July 11th
Except they weren't "Lehr's Panthers", they were actually I./Pz.-Regt. 6, so 3. Panzer Division's Panthers. They just happened to be attached to Lehr. Actually as of 5 June the battalion was en route to the Eastern Front, with the leading train at Magdeburg and the last train at Paris. It was ordered to rejoin the division and arrived at the front on 10 June and went into action on 11 June. I./Pz.-Lehr-Regt. 130, which was "Lahr's Panthers", was not formed until 7 August and did not fight with the division in Normandy.

Leutnant Von Historian
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Re: Panzer Lehr Tanks in Normandy

#6

Post by Leutnant Von Historian » 26 Oct 2014, 13:20

Thank you very much, does this mean the Panzer Lehr only have the Panzer IV medium tank as the backbone of their armor troops?

Michael Kenny
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Re: Panzer Lehr Tanks in Normandy

#7

Post by Michael Kenny » 26 Oct 2014, 16:38

It means that you did not do the search on Missing Lynx I gave you earlier. Lehr had 80+ Panthers, 90+ Pz IV and 40 Stug/Jgd Pz in Normandy.

Alanmccoubrey
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Re: Panzer Lehr Tanks in Normandy

#8

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 26 Oct 2014, 16:45

Leutnant Von Historian wrote:Thank you very much, does this mean the Panzer Lehr only have the Panzer IV medium tank as the backbone of their armor troops?

No it doesn't, what it means is that the PL had attached to it the Panther Battalion of PR6 rather than its own battalion that is all. It was not at all unusual for a Panzer Division to have a Panther Battalion which wasn't its own attached to it while its own Panthers were working up.
Alan

Leutnant Von Historian
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Re: Panzer Lehr Tanks in Normandy

#9

Post by Leutnant Von Historian » 27 Oct 2014, 15:47

Alanmccoubrey wrote:
Leutnant Von Historian wrote:Thank you very much, does this mean the Panzer Lehr only have the Panzer IV medium tank as the backbone of their armor troops?

No it doesn't, what it means is that the PL had attached to it the Panther Battalion of PR6 rather than its own battalion that is all. It was not at all unusual for a Panzer Division to have a Panther Battalion which wasn't its own attached to it while its own Panthers were working up.
Wow, that I didin't know. I thought the normal thing for Panzer divison is to use its own organic tanks. Thank you very much for that info.

Leutnant Von Historian
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Re: Panzer Lehr Tanks in Normandy

#10

Post by Leutnant Von Historian » 27 Oct 2014, 15:57

Edit: I'm talking about a full operating Panzer Divison not some kind of Kampfugruppe. But the fact it was not usual for Panzer Division especially the elite Panzer Lehr use other division Panthers due to the lack of their own is new to me.

RichTO90
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Re: Panzer Lehr Tanks in Normandy

#11

Post by RichTO90 » 27 Oct 2014, 18:58

Leutnant Von Historian wrote:Edit: I'm talking about a full operating Panzer Divison not some kind of Kampfugruppe.
We're not taking about Kampfgruppen either. A Kampfgruppe was simply a tactical formation and did not necessarily indicate a reduced strength division.
But the fact it was not usual for Panzer Division especially the elite Panzer Lehr use other division Panthers due to the lack of their own is new to me.
First you have to define "elite"... :lol:

Actually, it was common practice for both "elite" and "non-elite" formations. Typical practice was that one battalion of a Panzer regiment in the field was skeletonized, turning over equipment to the regiment, and then the personnel were sent back to Germany, typically Grafenwöhr, or in the case of France, Mailly-le-Camp, as a cadre for outfitting as a Panther battalion. As of 1 June 1944 the status of the Heer Panther units I know of was:

I./Pz.-Regt. Großdeutschland was at Mailly, but was attached to 116. Pz.-Div. It was sent to the Eastern Front on 19 June and was not engaged in Normandy.
I./Pz.-Regt. 1. was part of 1. Pz.-Div. and was on the East Front.
I./Pz.-Regt. 3 was in France and was part of 2. Pz.-Div.
I./Pz.Regt. 4 was in the vicinity of Frosinone, Italy, attached to 26. Pz.-Div. It was originally part of 13. Pz.-Div., but was now considered Heerestruppen. Eventually it was re-designated I./Pz.-Regt. 26. as part of 26. Pz.-Div.
I./Pz.-Regt. 11. was part of 6. Pz.-Div. on the East Front.
I./Pz.-Regt. 15 was at Mailly and was part of 11. Pz.-Div. It was just beginning to re-equip on 1 June and only had four Panthers on hand by 10 June. By 1 August it had 73 on hand of which 59 were operational. It rejoined the division in August during its withdrawal from southern France and was not engaged in Normandy.
I./Pz.-Regt. 16 was at Grafenwöhr and was part of 116. Pz.-Div. It did not join the division in Normandy
I./Pz.-Regt. 24 was at Mailly and was part of 24. Pz.-Div. It was attached to LVIII Pz.-K. It was attached to Pz.-Regt. 16 of 116. Pz.-Div. on 19 June with a strength of 76 Panthers.
I./Pz.-Regt. 25 was at Mailly and was part of 7. Pz.-Div. It was ordered to the Eastern Front in July and was not engaged in Normandy.
I./Pz.-Regt. 26. was pat of 26. Pz.-Div., but was attached to Pz.Gren.-Div. Großdeutschland on the East Front.
I./Pz.-Regt. 29 was at Mailly and was part of 12. Pz.-Div. It was attached to Pz.-Bde. 112 in September and was not engaged in Normandy.
I./Pz.Regt. 31 was part of 5. Pz.-Div. on the East Front.
II./Pz.-Regt. 33 was at Mailly and was part of 9. Pz.-Div. It began moving to Normandy on 24 July, but did not rejoin the division until late in August. In between, it was attached to various divisions.
I./Pz.Rgt. 35 was in route from Grafenwöhr to rejoin 4. Pz.-Div. on the East Front.
I./Pz.-Regt. 36 was at Mailly and was part of 14. Pz.-Div. It was ordered to the Eastern Front in August and was not engaged in Normandy.

???:

I./Pz.-Regt. 2.
I./Pz.Rgt. 9.
II./Pz.Regt. 21.
II./Pz.Rgt. 23.
I./Pz.-Regt. 27.
I./Pz.Regt. 39.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Panzer Lehr Tanks in Normandy

#12

Post by Sid Guttridge » 30 Oct 2014, 18:20

Hi LvH,

You write, "Panzer Lehr is a very famous formation".

This may be true, but whether this is justified is questionable. Its high profile is because it was the personal creation of Guderian in the winter of 1943-44 and was named rather than numbered. Guderian is quite pleased with its creation in his memoirs and says Hitler commented to the effect that it was a reserve on which he had not counted.

It was originally titled the Reserve-PanzerLehr Division and its core consisted of former Ersatzheer (Replacement Army)demonstration units. Thanks to Guderian's influence as head of the Panzerwaffe, it was relatively well equipped when it first entered action in Normandy. However, its creation disrupted training at home and diverted equipment and manpower from overstretched existing Army panzer divisions. Whether its creation was justified is questionable.

Cheers,

Sid.

Leutnant Von Historian
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Re: Panzer Lehr Tanks in Normandy

#13

Post by Leutnant Von Historian » 01 Nov 2014, 15:54

Thanks to everyone who had replied, your comments is very informative to me. By the way I want to say sorry to anyone who read my post (the #10), I just realize that I miswrite "unusual" to "usual". That probably cause confusion to anyone who read the weird response:)

Cheers,

LvH.

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