Question re Market Garden

[Imad]

Hello

It would seem from hindsight that the clearing of the Scheldt Estuary and the opening of the port at Antwerp should have taken precedence over capturing the bridges over the Rhine in 1944. However it's also probable that had the weather been more clement during Market Garden and not hampered air support so often the operation might well have succeeded.
Even if the operation were successful though, how would the Allies have solved the supply and logistical problems caused by Antwerp still being in enemy hands? Its an intriguing question.

What's your take on this?

[Kingfish]

My guess is with the success firmly in his pocket Monty would be justified in arguing for the single thrust strategy.

That's not to say the log problem would be "solved", far from it.

[Imad]

Yes, my guess too. Goes to show how much luck factors into these things, as Napoleon famously said.

[Carl Schwamberger]

My guess is with the success firmly in his pocket Monty would be justified in arguing for the single thrust strategy.

That's not to say the log problem would be "solved", far from it.

So many logisitics problems there... Antwerp unusable until the Scheldt was cleared. The Franco Belgian railroads requiring a years worth of repair. Cherbourg the only usable Atlantic post of consequence, Le Havre the same on the Channel. The Overlord logistics plan hitting trouble before the first transport left the UK. Major changes in shipment schedules, priorities, miscalculations in items needed... Strictly in terms of logistics a argument could be made for giving Devers 6th Army Group the 'single thrust' mission. Other reasons that might or might not work, but the 6th AG was the best supplied & in better general shape than the other two.

[Kingfish]

Strictly in terms of logistics a argument could be made for giving Devers 6th Army Group the 'single thrust' mission. Other reasons that might or might not work, but the 6th AG was the best supplied & in better general shape than the other two.

Aaaaaand...they were on the Rhine months ahead of every other AG.

Dever was already planning on a November crossing when Bradley squashed the idea and ordered him to play flank guard to Patton's 3rd army.

If only...

[Tom from Cornwall]

Hi,

Actually, I've read that the Belgian railways were in relatively good condition.

Regards

Tom

[Carl Schwamberger]

Strictly in terms of logistics a argument could be made for giving Devers 6th Army Group the 'single thrust' mission. Other reasons that might or might not work, but the 6th AG was the best supplied & in better general shape than the other two.

Aaaaaand...they were on the Rhine months ahead of every other AG.

Dever was already planning on a November crossing when Bradley squashed the idea and ordered him to play flank guard to Patton's 3rd army.

If only...

Bradley had nothing to order Dever about with, they were both equal AG commanders. Eisenhower is supposed to have been the one to turn Devers down. Devers proposed 6th AG as the focus of effort at a late September or early October meeting with Ike, while the aftermath of Op market Garden was still dragging on. Ike was not in the mood to consider yet another "Full Blooded Thrust" plan & politely told Devers he'd think about it.

This was about the same time a corps HQ a couple divisions were transfered from 3rd Army to 7th Army. 6th AG had been loaning 12 AG supplies for several weeks & the transfer of a corps was recognition COM Z could not pass through enough supplies to sustatin the reinforcements that were arriving for 12th AG. Eventually three US divisions & the corps group were shifted to 7th Army/6th AG.

Devers may have been a bit optimistic. It took another couple months to clear the Vosges mountains/Colmar pocket & close to the full length of the Rhine in 6th AG area. Trying to cross at the Rhine in November either north or south of the Vosges would have turned it in to another ultra narrow front river crossing. maybe if the 7th Army or the French had been able to pull off some sort of coup de main, capturing a crossing Remagen Bridge style in September, or early October, a concentration of effort there might have paid off, at least in terms of drawing German reserves and reinforcements south into the rugged country east of the upper Rhine. Maybe that would have triggered a hasty evacuation of the Vosges region? I've gamed this situation several times & it never came to any spectacular break out into the Black Forrest, Harz Mountains, or Bavarian hill country.

[Kingfish]

Bradley had nothing to order Dever about with, they were both equal AG commanders. Eisenhower is supposed to have been the one to turn Devers down.

Quite right, it was, IIRC, a tour by Ike with Brad in tow.

[MarkF617]

IIRC Monty thought that 1st Canadian Army would clear the Sheldt while 2nd Army was participating in Market Garden, however it was too much. I believe he even admitted he was wrong in this.

Mark

[Imad]

Yes even though MG could possibly have been a success were it not for the presence of 9 and 10 SS Pz, the Allies would still have bitten off more than they could chew with Antwerp and the Scheldt still stubbornly in German hands.

[Delta Tank]

My question is and I believe I have asked it before and IIRC never received an answer or any information, maybe it does not exist, but. . .Let us assume that the bridges were all captured and the British Army is over the Rhine. . Then what? It is not so simple as we envelope the Ruhr from the north. How? With what? What has to happen before the British Army moves against the Ruhr? Supply line needs to be secured which will require the widening of the corridor. Supply dumps need to moved forward. What would have to be accomplished before the advance on the Ruhr? And what is the timeline to accomplish all that? And where is the appreciation laying all that out? Or is this an example of "we will cross the Rhine and Jerry will surrender."???

Bare with me on this little story. I was at Gettysburg with a renown Civil War historian, and I asked the question "If Pickett's Charge had succeeded then what?" The answer was Lee would of retreated, he had shot his bolt, his army was used up, he had nothing left to exploit with and the Union Army had lots of guys left.

Mike