Relative combat efficiency - Normandy 1944

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MarkN
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Re: Relative combat efficiency - Normandy 1944

#226

Post by MarkN » 22 Jul 2016, 13:41

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote: Motive is something I haven't addressed at all. I was only concerned about the facts obtaining on the ground that precluded a defensive strategy as a preferred solution in 1942.
Thus...
sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:Again there is a fundamental disconnect here.
.
sandeepmukherjee196 wrote: To contemplate the kind of defensive scenario stated in the Fuehrer Directive quoted by you, the Wehrmacht had to first reach those places in the map mentioned there! Those locations were far far far away that '42 spring/summer. What I find intriguing is that a strategy is being referred to, which was conditional to a completely different strategic situation. And it is being offered as a preferred option for a qualitatively different scenario as obtaining in '42.
:roll:

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Re: Relative combat efficiency - Normandy 1944

#227

Post by Sheldrake » 22 Dec 2016, 03:35

Richard Anderson wrote: My problem is Geyr never commanded II SS-Panzerkorps operationally in Normandy. Beginning at 2245 hours 10 June Allied bombers, guided by ULTRA and radio direction-finding, wrecked the tactical command post of Panzergruppe West, wounding Geyr, killing his Chef des Stabes von Dawans, his Ia Major Burgsthaler, and 17 others and wounding many of the other personnel there. Most of the headquarters communications equipment and vehicles was destroyed as well. The bombing knocked Panzergruppe West out of the battle until 28 June. Geyr was relieved of command on 2 July by Eberbach. II SS-Panzerkorps received orders to return to Normandy on 11June. 9. SS-Panzer began arriving on 21 June and 10. SS-Panzer on 20 June. Initial commitment of elements of the two divisions was on 29 June.
If a court ever needed an expert to express a professional judgment about the relative efficiency of Panzer Divisions in in Normandy in 1944, you would be hard pressed to find anyone better qualified to give that opinion. ;)
Why yes, but with respect, for II SS-Panzerkorps and its two divisions that assessment could only have been made in the period before 26 March or after from 28 June-2 July.

No, the invasion was 6 June, Geyr says the estimate was "based on 6 June", but German estimates were reported on the 1st of the month, based on information collated during the last days of the previous month or for some reporting (primarily casualties) were for dekades (1st-10th, 11th-20th, and 21st-31st of the month). In either case, you still simply choose to ignore the simple fact if reported on either the 1st or the 6th Panzergruppe West would NOT BE evaluating effectiveness of II SS-Panzerkorps and its two divisions. He is also expressing a reporting format which was very irregular.

This is not an issue of "professional judgment" or expert opinion; it is an issue of anomalous facts.
It is hair splitting to suggest that the capabilities of II SS Panzer Corps changed materially between 1st and 6th June. Furthermore, having seen the units formed and trained in the West he was well aware of their capabilities. There weren't massive personnel changes between march and June. Nor did the commanders change their personalities ro become supermen. Its the same as sports teams and school classes.

Geyr may have only commanded the corps in battle for four days but he knew the people and their capabilities. if you spend time with military units it is easy to see who are the really good leaders and trainers.

Geyr was well respected by the commanders within II SS corps, judging by the comments in their post war interviews. He was seen as a good trainer of panzer troops. Guderian picked him to be the Inspector general of Panzer troops. If Panzer warfare was a national sport, he would be in the man in charge of the national coaching.

His assessments were not based on the material within each formation, but the human dimension, which you won't get from counting tanks.


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Re: Relative combat efficiency - Normandy 1944

#228

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 22 Dec 2016, 10:01

History. ..particularly that of the Wehrmacht in WWII ... tells us that "experts" and "trainers" may turn out to be pretty ordinary in operational roles.

The Pz Lehr div is a case in point. And the arch proponent of the Panzerwaffe. .. the expert of experts .. Guderian himself? After France 1940?
In front of Moscow his 2nd pz gruppe was the least effective amongst all the pz formations driving the pincers.
After 5 Dec when the time came to defend. .. again Guderian was found wanting...
In Normandy he called it wrong. His entire assessment was haywire. Geyr was another "coach and expert" of the same lineage.

Cheers
Sandeep

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Re: Relative combat efficiency - Normandy 1944

#229

Post by Sheldrake » 22 Dec 2016, 10:35

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:History. ..particularly that of the Wehrmacht in WWII ... tells us that "experts" and "trainers" may turn out to be pretty ordinary in operational roles.

The Pz Lehr div is a case in point. And the arch proponent of the Panzerwaffe. .. the expert of experts .. Guderian himself? After France 1940?
In front of Moscow his 2nd pz gruppe was the least effective amongst all the pz formations driving the pincers.
After 5 Dec when the time came to defend. .. again Guderian was found wanting...
In Normandy he called it wrong. His entire assessment was haywire. Geyr was another "coach and expert" of the same lineage.

Cheers
Sandeep
As ever, a provocative view in favour if the ignorant and amateur as exemplified by GROFAZ.

The only problem with Guderian's operational leadership in Russia was Hitler assumption that he and other commanders could continue to do more and more with diminishing forces.

If Guderian was so so bad, and his expertise irrelevant; why did Hitler promoter him to be inspector general of panzer troops and then Chief of staff of OKH...

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Re: Relative combat efficiency - Normandy 1944

#230

Post by Richard Anderson » 22 Dec 2016, 20:02

Sheldrake wrote:It is hair splitting to suggest that the capabilities of II SS Panzer Corps changed materially between 1st and 6th June.
No, it is disingenuous of you to persist in claiming that is what I am saying, when I have made it clear it is not. I never "suggested" anything of the sort. I simply pointed out - now six months ago - that Geyr's story had considerable holes in it. His labeling what would have been a 1 June report as a 6 June report was only a minor part of it. The major one was that he had no real operational contact or context for what II. SS-Panzerkorps did and experienced after they left his administrative control in March 1944. By the time they returned to Normandy he was gone. He could have no idea what condition they were in or what their capabilities were when they actually went into battle in Normandy.
Furthermore, having seen the units formed and trained in the West he was well aware of their capabilities. There weren't massive personnel changes between march and June. Nor did the commanders change their personalities ro become supermen. Its the same as sports teams and school classes.
Why yes, he saw how they were formed and trained at Mailly and the other training grounds in France. I doubt he had much of any idea how they actually performed in their combat debut in Russia or what their personnel and material condition was like when they entered combat in Normandy after he was relieved.
Geyr may have only commanded the corps in battle for four days but he knew the people and their capabilities. if you spend time with military units it is easy to see who are the really good leaders and trainers.
Actually, there is little or no evidence to indicate that Geyr commanded the corps in battle at all.
Geyr was well respected by the commanders within II SS corps, judging by the comments in their post war interviews. He was seen as a good trainer of panzer troops. Guderian picked him to be the Inspector general of Panzer troops. If Panzer warfare was a national sport, he would be in the man in charge of the national coaching.
That's all well and good, but being "liked" or being a "coach" would have very little impact if he had no practical idea of how they actually performed in battle.
His assessments were not based on the material within each formation, but the human dimension, which you won't get from counting tanks.
So he was a psychiatrist then? Or was he the Joel Osteen of the Panzerwaffe? :roll:
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Re: Relative combat efficiency - Normandy 1944

#231

Post by Richard Anderson » 22 Dec 2016, 20:07

Sheldrake wrote:As ever, a provocative view in favour if the ignorant and amateur as exemplified by GROFAZ.

But, but, but...he PREDICTED NORMANDY! He MUST be a military genius! Stormfront SAYS he is! :lol: :lol: :lol:
The only problem with Guderian's operational leadership in Russia was Hitler assumption that he and other commanders could continue to do more and more with diminishing forces.

If Guderian was so so bad, and his expertise irrelevant; why did Hitler promoter him to be inspector general of panzer troops and then Chief of staff of OKH...
Guderian's principal fault, insofar as I can see, was his unshakable belief in his own genius and his inveterate self-promotion postwar...never mind that did not make him at all unique among the postwar German generals. :roll:
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Re: Relative combat efficiency - Normandy 1944

#232

Post by Stiltzkin » 22 Dec 2016, 20:54

Guderian's principal fault, insofar as I can see, was his unshakable belief in his own genius and his inveterate self-promotion postwar...never mind that did not make him at all unique among the postwar German generals.
I do not know why people put so much faith into Guderians statements. I went through many of his claims and realized that he was a notorious liar.

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Re: Relative combat efficiency - Normandy 1944

#233

Post by Sheldrake » 22 Dec 2016, 21:59

Stiltzkin wrote:
Guderian's principal fault, insofar as I can see, was his unshakable belief in his own genius and his inveterate self-promotion postwar...never mind that did not make him at all unique among the postwar German generals.
I do not know why people put so much faith into Guderians statements. I went through many of his claims and realized that he was a notorious liar.
Panzer leader is full of self justification. However, Achtung Panzer! (1937) was prescient, instructional and brilliant. It was a generation better than anything written by anybody else about how armour should be used and organised.

The organisation he outlined broadly worked out of the tin, and everybody else's armoured divisions ended up copying his design. At the same time as Guderian published in open source how panzer divisions should be organised and operate, other armour visionaries such as de Gaulle and Martel were coming up with insanely unbalanced organisational designs

That is evidence of Guderian's military genius. His record in making his creations work in the field in Poland, France and Russia shows he had a talent for tactical and operational command.

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Re: Relative combat efficiency - Normandy 1944

#234

Post by paulrward » 22 Dec 2016, 23:32

Hello Mr. Sheldrake :

Perhaps you should read the writings of J.F.C. Fuller ( On Future Warfare ) and Liddell Hart from the 1920-25 period, as well as the writings by D.D. Eisenhower and G. C. Patton ( writing in the Infantry and Cavalry Journals of 1919 to 1921), and V. Triandafillov, M. Tukhachevsky, and N. E. Varfolomeev, who propounded what was referred to as 'Deep Operations" by the Soviet Army in the early 1930s. Also, not to be excluded, are the writings of Jean Baptiste Eugène Estienne, who, in France, is often referred to as " Le Pere Des Chars ".

While the Germans gave it a sexy name, Blitzkrieg, they were not the inventors of the doctrine, merely it's first really successful users of it.


Respectfully

Paul R. Ward
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Re: Relative combat efficiency - Normandy 1944

#235

Post by Sheldrake » 23 Dec 2016, 01:56

paulrward wrote:Hello Mr. Sheldrake :

Perhaps you should read the writings of J.F.C. Fuller ( On Future Warfare ) and Liddell Hart from the 1920-25 period, as well as the writings by D.D. Eisenhower and G. C. Patton ( writing in the Infantry and Cavalry Journals of 1919 to 1921), and V. Triandafillov, M. Tukhachevsky, and N. E. Varfolomeev, who propounded what was referred to as 'Deep Operations" by the Soviet Army in the early 1930s. Also, not to be excluded, are the writings of Jean Baptiste Eugène Estienne, who, in France, is often referred to as " Le Pere Des Chars ".

While the Germans gave it a sexy name, Blitzkrieg, they were not the inventors of the doctrine, merely it's first really successful users of it.


Respectfully

Paul R. Ward
Paul,

That is a very interesting point of view and I hear what you say, and will bear it in mind even if it is a brave statement. You must come for dinner when we can discuss other options :)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 30046.html
You may think me an idiot, but have you read Achtung Panzer?

I did not credit Guderian with inventing Blitzkrieg, (a journalistic label), but with designing the balanced organisational structure that made tanks an operational rather than tactical weapon. Furthermore, he made his ideas work. The right balance of armour and supporting arms for an armoured division wasn't immediately obvious. The British, French and Russians all went to war with organisations that didn't work any thing like as well.

Which is more that Fuller and Liddell Hart did as tank visionaries. Neither created a workable mechanised organisation above regimental level.
I nearly mentioned the Russians and deep battle champions, but their ideas could not be implemented within the Red Army of the 1930s. The formations were too unwieldy and the Red army lacked the communications equipment and the level of training to make them work. (certainly not after Stalin's purges)

Bringing this back on to topic. The Red Army of 1944 were arguably doctrinal descendants of the Soviet deep battle proponents and the realitv e efficiency of the red Army pf 1944

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Re: Relative combat efficiency - Normandy 1944

#236

Post by Sheldrake » 23 Dec 2016, 02:14

I had to look up what Patton was writing in 1921 and found this article in which he calls for "Tank Corps", but his idea is for an arm of sercice to co-operate with a manouvre force mounted on four legs.
COMMENTS ON “CAVALRY TANKS”
By Major George S. Patton, Jr., Cavalry
Cavalry Journal
July 1921
In response to a request for remarks on the foregoing article, I must begin by a most vigorous
dissent from the writer's picture of a senile and impotent cavalry, futilely butting it's head against
impregnable strong points. I can agree only to the extent of admitting that a cavalry which so
deported itself would certainly have no future; nor has it, when well led, had any such past in
history.

Cavalry, now as always, must advance by enveloping. When the ground, as in France, was so
limited as to prevent this, cavalry must await the breakthrough made by the tanks. However,
western Europe is the only country small enough and with sufficient population and roads to
render such a state of things possible. In other theaters of war, the constant power of envelopment
which the mobility of cavalry makes possible will render strong points nothing but asylums for the
safe keeping of the hostile idiots who infest them.

There are many cases, such as in raids, long turning movements, screening, etc., where cavalry is
and ever will be wholly self sufficient and where the addition of mechanical devices will be more
of a hindrance than otherwise. Cavalry has lived off the country and can yet do so. To it, lines of
supply are unnecessary. Tanks, on the other hand, depend wholly on lines of supply for the vast
tonnage of gas, oil, and spares. Without these they become merely inferior pill boxes. Hence, to
attach them to cavalry on lengthy operations is to seriously demobilize the latter.

In other cases, however, such as in short turning movements, advance and rear guard work of
mixed commands, counter attacks, etc., where lines of supply are not needed or already exist,
tanks will be of great assistance to cavalry, combining, as they do, great mobility with concentrated
firepower.


The point as to the economic impossibility of building enough tanks to constitute a mechanical
army is well taken. In addition, however, to this vital objection to the ubiquitous use of tanks
should be mentioned the restrictions due to unsuitable terrain and the difficulty of oversea
transport. I was, and believe that I still am, as enthusiastic a tanker as ever caterpillared, yet I
cannot bring myself to the point of picturing tanks, present or future, real or imaginary, as ever
operating in the mountains of Mexico, the rice paddies of the Philippines, the forests of Canada, or,
in face of competent artillery, on the sandy and gully infested plains of Texas. I cannot picture a
large oversea force giving up that priceless commodity, deck space, to large shipments of tanks;
nor can I imagine a sea born invasion so transporting them to our shores.


Tanks are a new and special weapon, newer than, as special, and certainly as valuable as the
airplane. Can one imagine infantry airplanes manned by detailed doughboys; or artillery airplanes
manned by wagon soldiers or cosmoline kids; or yet cavalry airplanes ridden by sturdy troopers
with the use of “lateral aids"? Hardly!

The tank is a special, technical, and vastly powerful weapon. It certainly is neither a cavalryman
nor an infantryman. Yet, give it half a chance, over suitable terrain and on proper missions, and it
will mean the difference between defeat and victory to the infantry or cavalry with which it is
cooperating.


What is wanted, then, is neither infantry tanks nor cavalry tanks, but a TANK CORPS, a special
mobile general headquarters reserve, to be detailed, as circumstances demand, with whichever arm
it can best cooperate.

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Re: Relative combat efficiency - Normandy 1944

#237

Post by Sheldrake » 23 Dec 2016, 02:52

Richard Anderson wrote:
Sheldrake wrote:
snip
Geyr may have only commanded the corps in battle for four days but he knew the people and their capabilities. if you spend time with military units it is easy to see who are the really good leaders and trainers.
(2) Actually, there is little or no evidence to indicate that Geyr commanded the corps in battle at all.
Geyr was well respected by the commanders within II SS corps, judging by the comments in their post war interviews. He was seen as a good trainer of panzer troops. Guderian picked him to be the Inspector general of Panzer troops. If Panzer warfare was a national sport, he would be in the man in charge of the national coaching.
That's all well and good, but being "liked" or being a "coach" would have very little impact if he had no practical idea of how they actually performed in battle.
His assessments were not based on the material within each formation, but the human dimension, which you won't get from counting tanks.
So he was a psychiatrist then? Or was he the Joel Osteen of the Panzerwaffe? :roll:
Richard, I'll make two observations

Lets start with this
So he was a psychiatrist then? Or was he the Joel Osteen of the Panzerwaffe? :roll:
I don't know what you think military leaders do, but Warfare is a human activity, and getting people to fight and fight well is a major part of military leadership. Generals exercise that leadership through subordinates. That comes through from Geyr's comments on the strengths and weaknesses of the Panzer formations.

Actually Geyr assumed command of Panzer Gruppe West at the end of June 1944 at a time when II SS Corps were one of the Corps under his command, and committed to battle in the nearest operation that the Germans mounted to a counter offensive in Normandy before the breakout. I find it hard to believe that the status and capabilities of this formation would not have weighed on Geyr's mind, and been pretty high up in the general's priorities for reports. The battle of Gettysburg lasted for three days, but that was plenty enough for the commanders on each side to form enough of an opinion of how their subordinates performed to fill books and articles for over a century...
Last edited by Sheldrake on 23 Dec 2016, 10:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Relative combat efficiency - Normandy 1944

#238

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 23 Dec 2016, 05:05

Sheldrake wrote:
sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:History. ..particularly that of the Wehrmacht in WWII ... tells us that "experts" and "trainers" may turn out to be pretty ordinary in operational roles.

The Pz Lehr div is a case in point. And the arch proponent of the Panzerwaffe. .. the expert of experts .. Guderian himself? After France 1940?
In front of Moscow his 2nd pz gruppe was the least effective amongst all the pz formations driving the pincers.
After 5 Dec when the time came to defend. .. again Guderian was found wanting...
In Normandy he called it wrong. His entire assessment was haywire. Geyr was another "coach and expert" of the same lineage.

Cheers
Sandeep
As ever, a provocative view in favour if the ignorant and amateur as exemplified by GROFAZ.

The only problem with Guderian's operational leadership in Russia was Hitler assumption that he and other commanders could continue to do more and more with diminishing forces.

If Guderian was so so bad, and his expertise irrelevant; why did Hitler promoter him to be inspector general of panzer troops and then Chief of staff of OKH...
Sheldrake. ..mine is a "provocative" observation in favour of facts alone. I wonder why you insist on misreading people's intent and make unwarranted projections.
I never said Guderian didn't know his armoured warfare. I agree with you that he was perhaps the most influential and successful proponent of the All Arms Armoured Division in the 30s.
His role was all the more creditable since he had to work under the Versailles constraints. In fact he had had to make contraptions from tin mounted on bicycles, I believe, to simulate tanks ....for playing war games to establish the Panzer doctrine. For instance when he gave a demonstration of the capabilities and potential of the Panzerwaffe to the "ignorant and the amateur". And which demonstration tipped the scale in favour of formal military investment in the Panzer arm as a serious endeavour.
My observations which you chose to ignore and twist for some reason, simply referred to his subsequent operational "ordinariness" when the going got tough. Once out of his familiar western Europe and tank friendly summer time Russia.... what then ?
Are you suggesting that his 2nd pz gr. ..by far the strongest and the best equipped amongst all the pz grps. .. performed at par with the rest in front of Moscow?
Are you suggesting that his stance in defence after 5 Dec was in order?
Can you provide any example of a Guderian operational success anywhere subsequently when he was brought back by the ignorant and the amateur?
Are you suggesting that he made any positive contributions as the IG Panzer forces in France? If so. ..what?

Cheers
Sandeep

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Re: Relative combat efficiency - Normandy 1944

#239

Post by histan » 23 Dec 2016, 14:47

Hi Paul

In UK terminology, Fuller and Liddell Hart were not developing "Doctrine", they were developing a theoretical "Concept" for the use of tanks and of armoured warfare. The concept(s) they developed were one of a number of concepts that were being developed during that period (and later) within the British Army.

In common with I think most countries, in particular Germany, these concepts were considered in the light of the army's experiences in the First World War and what might be called the "ethos" of how the army saw itself as operating. [Part of this "ethos" would be the principles of war that Fuller was so influential in helping the army formulate]

Experimentation was undertaken to test some of these concepts.

Finally, decisions were taken as to which concept(s) would be taken forward and incorporated into the current operating concept(s) to make a new operating concept.

Changes were then made over what we now term the Lines of Development - for the army one of the most important of these was Organisation, the number and composition of different units and formations. From organization stemmed manpower and equipment requirements.

Doctrine was then amended or written to provide guidance and best practice on how the concept might be employed in actual operations.

The theoretical concepts developed by Fuller and Liddell Hart gained little traction in the British army which didn't settle on a single concept, which is why the doctrine was confusing.

This is in sharp contrast to Germany, where a concept was settled on more quickly, more experimentation undertaken and the concept incorporated in doctrine more successfully.

I can't comment on either the US or Russian experience.

As an aside, whatever Eisenhower might have written in the 1920s concerning the "Deep Battle", he had certainly forgotten it by the time of the Normandy campaign. There is no evidence that any of the allied planning in Normandy involved such a concept and the US operational concept has been summed up as "attack everywhere all of the time".

Regards

John

This

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Re: Relative combat efficiency - Normandy 1944

#240

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 23 Dec 2016, 16:51

histan wrote:Hi Paul

In UK terminology, Fuller and Liddell Hart were not developing "Doctrine", they were developing a theoretical "Concept" for the use of tanks and of armoured warfare. The concept(s) they developed were one of a number of concepts that were being developed during that period (and later) within the British Army.

In common with I think most countries, in particular Germany, these concepts were considered in the light of the army's experiences in the First World War and what might be called the "ethos" of how the army saw itself as operating. [Part of this "ethos" would be the principles of war that Fuller was so influential in helping the army formulate]

Experimentation was undertaken to test some of these concepts.

Finally, decisions were taken as to which concept(s) would be taken forward and incorporated into the current operating concept(s) to make a new operating concept.

Changes were then made over what we now term the Lines of Development - for the army one of the most important of these was Organisation, the number and composition of different units and formations. From organization stemmed manpower and equipment requirements.

Doctrine was then amended or written to provide guidance and best practice on how the concept might be employed in actual operations.

The theoretical concepts developed by Fuller and Liddell Hart gained little traction in the British army which didn't settle on a single concept, which is why the doctrine was confusing.

This is in sharp contrast to Germany, where a concept was settled on more quickly, more experimentation undertaken and the concept incorporated in doctrine more successfully.

I can't comment on either the US or Russian experience.

As an aside, whatever Eisenhower might have written in the 1920s concerning the "Deep Battle", he had certainly forgotten it by the time of the Normandy campaign. There is no evidence that any of the allied planning in Normandy involved such a concept and the US operational concept has been summed up as "attack everywhere all of the time".

Regards

John

This
Hi John. ..

Succinctly put and summed up.

The British tank divs didn't reflect any All Arms concept in 1940. The Russian tank formations by whatever nomenclature they went by, didn't reflect the All Arms concept either.

In fact the Russians never, till the last day, learned or applied the Panzer doctrine. With time and the disintegration of the Wehrmacht, the Russians ultimately didn't need to to learn it !

Patton poor soul tried to use it after Cobra but he was basically punching air. ..since there was no enemy left to breakthrough and envelop.
The Wehrmacht had been nebulised and scattered in the wind. And when he came up against any kind of Wehrmacht worth the name in the autumn of 44. ...he got his mug busted in Metz. And the pz doctrine went out through the window thenceforth.
So Guderian's pz concepts bore fruit only with the Wehrmacht for some years and then. .. ironically with the Israeli army .. decades later!
Cheers
Sandeep

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