Allied invasion through Denmark

Discussions on WW2 in Western Europe & the Atlantic.
Mori
Member
Posts: 1632
Joined: 25 Oct 2014, 12:04
Location: Europe

Re: Allied invasion through Denmark

#46

Post by Mori » 28 May 2016, 10:37

I like your detailed knowledge of the events and the way you expose them.

The sequence of proposals put up by Montgomery from Aug 18th to Sep 10th (when he gets the go for Market-Garden) is an anomaly compared to the way he thinks and works all war long. There is no other example of him drafting plans with each being a dramatic correction of the previous one. On the contrary, there are several cases when he designs a plan, sticks to it, and convinces everyone of its relevance: El Alamein, Sicily, Normandy, Rhineland...

Therefore I think this is a moment when something distracts Montgomery dramatically. And this can only be the change in organization and Ike taking over the role of Supreme Commander. You can definitively read Monty's proposals as a way to nullify Ike's new role. During this period Monty loses temper against subordinates (the clash with Crerar on Sep 4th being a prime example), and that's really not his way - he has not hesitation to sack subordinates, but at other times he does not bother clashing with them. The way he improvises the fact gathering for Market Garden the morning he meets Ike (Sep 10th) again goes against his systematic and methodical way.

When looking at the whole Montgomery career, this is the only time when he is "out of his mind".

Aber
Member
Posts: 1124
Joined: 05 Jan 2010, 22:43

Re: Allied invasion through Denmark

#47

Post by Aber » 28 May 2016, 18:54

Thanks

I agree with your assessment - Montgomery got frustrated that Eisenhower was taking over but had no clear plan. I think there's a quote from Eisenhower about letting the various Army Group commanders act as Ground Commanders in their sectors ie no real strategic direction or co-ordination.

Montgomery did however change plans before eg at the Mareth line when the original attack failed.

I don't see this as a single period where Montgomery kept refining his original plan (which really only focussed on reaching Belgium). Once Montgomery intervened to keep the advance going at night, and the Somme bridges captured without a fight, then the situation changed dramatically - it was likely that Brussels and Antwerp could be reached without any serious fighting, although it would take time to clear the Germans from the fortified ports. Montgomery could start thinking about crossing the Rhine and capturing the Ruhr (and how to ensure that after capturing the Ruhr that the Allied forces were well-balanced to advance towards Berlin).


steverodgers801
Member
Posts: 1147
Joined: 13 Aug 2011, 19:02

Re: Allied invasion through Denmark

#48

Post by steverodgers801 » 29 May 2016, 02:58

Eisenhower had a plan, unfortunatly the British were throwing fits that they were not dictating to the Americans any more. As I stated . Monty and Brooke would not understand that Ike could not simply keep portions of his army idle so that Monty could go off winning the war on his own. If Brooke had had his way the allieswould not have invaded France until after Berlin fell. Ike's job was as political as it was military and the two could not be seperated. The beginning plan was thrown out the window when Hitler decided to fight in Normandy as long as he did, It was Monty who failed to ensure that the Canadians cleared the Scheldt so that Antwerp could be used,

Mori
Member
Posts: 1632
Joined: 25 Oct 2014, 12:04
Location: Europe

Re: Allied invasion through Denmark

#49

Post by Mori » 29 May 2016, 11:22

Aber wrote: Montgomery did however change plans before eg at the Mareth line when the original attack failed.
It is, however, the single serious exception ; and that's adapting to the tactical evolution of the situation - always a sound ability - rather than making any change in the operational intention.

Aber
Member
Posts: 1124
Joined: 05 Jan 2010, 22:43

Re: Allied invasion through Denmark

#50

Post by Aber » 29 May 2016, 13:03

steverodgers801 wrote:Eisenhower had a plan, unfortunatly the British were throwing fits that they were not dictating to the Americans any more.
Can you provide details of this plan? Eisenhower seems to have listened to Bradley and Montgomery's ideas and then created a plan which included everything. To me a plan should set clear priorities, which is something that I can't recall Eisenhower ever doing.
If Brooke had had his way the allies would not have invaded France until after Berlin fell.
:D
The beginning plan was thrown out the window when Hitler decided to fight in Normandy as long as he did
What do you consider the beginning plan, and what was thrown out of the window?
It was Monty who failed to ensure that the Canadians cleared the Scheldt so that Antwerp could be used,
Perhaps they were too busy opening Le Havre, Dieppe, Calais, Boulogne...

Aber
Member
Posts: 1124
Joined: 05 Jan 2010, 22:43

Re: Allied invasion through Denmark

#51

Post by Aber » 29 May 2016, 14:05

Mori wrote: It is, however, the single serious exception ; and that's adapting to the tactical evolution of the situation - always a sound ability - rather than making any change in the operational intention.
I think that clarity of operational intention was one of Montgomery's key strengths, and one of the reasons others appreciated serving under him.

IIRC there is a quote from Butcher along the lines - Montgomery's instructions are always so clear, which is why I paste them into the diary I'm keeping for Eisenhower.

As I understand it defining 'commander's intention' was one of the key differences between the allies; it was a standard part of UK orders, but not US.

Gooner1
Member
Posts: 2776
Joined: 06 Jan 2006, 13:24
Location: London

Re: Allied invasion through Denmark

#52

Post by Gooner1 » 01 Jun 2016, 14:51

Mori wrote: Therefore I think this is a moment when something distracts Montgomery dramatically. And this can only be the change in organization and Ike taking over the role of Supreme Commander. You can definitively read Monty's proposals as a way to nullify Ike's new role. During this period Monty loses temper against subordinates (the clash with Crerar on Sep 4th being a prime example), and that's really not his way - he has not hesitation to sack subordinates, but at other times he does not bother clashing with them. The way he improvises the fact gathering for Market Garden the morning he meets Ike (Sep 10th) again goes against his systematic and methodical way.

When looking at the whole Montgomery career, this is the only time when he is "out of his mind".
I tend to agree, and its understandable why. From an intention "to secure bridgeheads over the Rhine before winter began, and to seize the Ruhr quickly" the Allies had mostly not got anywhere near the Rhine by winter and the Germans had been able to take the initiative.

Post Reply

Return to “WW2 in Western Europe & the Atlantic”