How much planning did Monty do for Market Garden?
How much planning did Monty do for Market Garden?
I have been reading a lot lately about Market Garden, both books and on this forum. Mostly the Germans are (rightly) seen as the main cause of defeat but when allied failures are looked at I have noticed that in general people blame Monty as it was his show but when the operation is looked at in detail Brereton/Williams get blamed for the airlift plan, the RAF get blamed for the drop zones and Gavin/Browning get blamed for prioritising the Groesbeek nights ahead of the Nijmegen bridges. All Monty seems to get blamed for is the direction of the attack which he apparently chose due to a letter from his superiors telling him to cut off the V2 launch sites. My question is how much hands on did Monty have on Market Garden (and Comet before it)? After all he was an army group commander and Market Garden only involved one of the armies under his command (plus support from FAAA). Did he write an outline of what he wanted and let the army commanders and their subordinates/staffs do their own planning? It seems lots of people disagreed with aspects of the plan, did any of this reach Monty? One person who gets little mention is Dempsey yet it's his army providing the bulk of the forces. Surely he must have had some input.
Mark.
Mark.
You know you're British when you drive your German car to an Irish pub for a pint of Belgian beer before having an Indian meal. When you get home you sit on your Sweedish sofa and watch American programs on your Japanese TV.
Re: How much planning did Monty do for Market Garden?
You need to look at the relevant documents in the National archive.
Re: How much planning did Monty do for Market Garden?
On Comet from Roger Cirillo's PhD (available via British Library Ethos)
NAC. RG 24, Volume 20402, File 969.( D24), "Operations-2nd British Army Sep/Dec4 4," 21 Army Group TOPSEC Most Immediate Cipher Message No. D/19,3 SEP4 4;
Footnoted:Initiation of the operation followed the methodology that had been standard with Montgomery since Normandy and by First Allied Airborne Army since August. On 3 September, Monty and Dempsey discussed an airborne operation to support 30 Corps' mission of securing a bridgehead on the Rhine between WESEL and
NIJMEGEN. The next day Dempsey met Browning, De Guingand, and Miles Graham at 2 Army's headquarters to discuss the capture of "NUMEGEN and ARNHEM." The following day, this orders group met Montgomery. Browning, De Guingand, and Graham discussed the concept, after which Browning reported to Dempsey to finalize details. Dempsey, under whose Army I Airborne Corps would operate once dropped, and who would assign a corps for the ground phase and linkup, took control of the details of the ground plan. Browning then returned to First Allied Airborne Army to develop the outline plan into a coordinated operation.
NAC. RG 24, Volume 20402, File 969.( D24), "Operations-2nd British Army Sep/Dec4 4," 21 Army Group TOPSEC Most Immediate Cipher Message No. D/19,3 SEP4 4;
Market Garden was obviously more complicated as it also involved US forces but the above seems to give a good outline of the initial planning process; mostly verbal and delegated.Montgomery had approved Dempsey's outline plan on 5 September and recorded it in his log:
(a) 30 Corps, with Gds. Armd. Div. and II Armd Div. leading, start off at 0700 hrs. on 7 Sept. from LOUVAIN and ANTWERP areas.The movement is northeast, directed on EINDHOVEN and BREDA.
(b) The I British Airborne Div. plus the Polish Para. Bde., will be landed on the evening of 7 Sept. (before dark) in the general area ARNHEM-NUMEGEN-GRAVE to seize the bridges over the RHINE and MEUSE.
(c) If the weather is bad and the airborne forces cannot operate, then 30 Corps will not go beyond the line EINDHOVEN-BREDA. The corps will advance beyond this line when the air forces drop.
(d) Gds. Armd. Div. will be directed on GRAVE-NUMEGENARNHEM.
(e) II Arrnd. Div. will be directed on BREDA-TILBURGHERTOGENBOSCH, and on to the RHINE crossing to the north.
(f). 12 Corps to take over ANTWERP and left flank protection6.
Re: How much planning did Monty do for Market Garden?
Award of the most useful adviceSheldrake wrote:You need to look at the relevant documents in the National archive.
Re: How much planning did Monty do for Market Garden?
And the good news is this is available online, although you will need to check quite some pages manually until you get it.Aber wrote: Footnoted:
NAC. RG 24, Volume 20402, File 969.( D24), "Operations-2nd British Army Sep/Dec4 4," 21 Army Group TOPSEC Most Immediate Cipher Message No. D/19,3 SEP4 4;
It's somewhere there:
http://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/oocih ... kan_133700
I'd start with T-6683 to T-6689, from 1st Can Army.
Re: How much planning did Monty do for Market Garden?
Thanks. I'll have to have a look through them.
Mark.
Mark.
You know you're British when you drive your German car to an Irish pub for a pint of Belgian beer before having an Indian meal. When you get home you sit on your Sweedish sofa and watch American programs on your Japanese TV.
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Re: How much planning did Monty do for Market Garden?
To all,
I have asked this question on other threads and as far as I know no one has posted an answer, so here goes. Let's assume that Operation Market Garden is successful, then what? All the books that I have read state something like, "The Ruhr would be flanked from the north, isolated from Germany, war over by Christmas of 1944" or words to that effect. Now my question, how would the follow on operation be conducted? With what forces? Logistics? Flanks covered by what forces? Would 21st Army Group clear western Holland first? Time line for all this to happen? There must be a document or documents that answer all the above questions, Operation Market Garden would not be launched without a plan for the follow on operation.
Thanks in advance
Mike
I have asked this question on other threads and as far as I know no one has posted an answer, so here goes. Let's assume that Operation Market Garden is successful, then what? All the books that I have read state something like, "The Ruhr would be flanked from the north, isolated from Germany, war over by Christmas of 1944" or words to that effect. Now my question, how would the follow on operation be conducted? With what forces? Logistics? Flanks covered by what forces? Would 21st Army Group clear western Holland first? Time line for all this to happen? There must be a document or documents that answer all the above questions, Operation Market Garden would not be launched without a plan for the follow on operation.
Thanks in advance
Mike
Re: How much planning did Monty do for Market Garden?
2nd Army orders 13th September:
Eisenhower's directive 13th September30 Corps will pass rapidly through the corridor established by British Airborne Corps and 101 US Airborne Division [under command, 30 Corps] and will establish itself on the high ground in the area between ARNHEM and the ZUYDER ZEE.
[8 Corps] will progressively relieve 30 Corps of responsibility for its RIGHT flank and will capture initially WEERT and SOERENDONK. 8 Corps will later advance as far NORTH as the MEUSE and possibly beyond.
[ 12 Corps] will progressively relieve 30 Corps of responsibility for its LEFT flank and will capture initially RETHY, ARENDONCK and TURNHOUT and later advance as far NORTH as the MEUSE and possibly beyond.
Montgomery directive 14th September:Northern Group of Armies, swinging generally northward from its present position, will advance promptly to seize a bridgehead over the Rhine and prepare to seize the Ruhr.
Second British Army
15. The first task of the Army is to operate northwards and secure the crossings over the RHINE and MEUSE in the general area ARNHEM-NIJMEGEN-GRAVE. An airborne corps of three divisions is placed under command Second Army for these operations.
16. The Army will then establish itself in strength on the general line ZWOLLE-DEVENTER-ARNHEM, facing east, with deep bridgeheads to the east side of the IJSSEL river. From this position it will be prepared to advance eastwards to the general area RHEINE-OSNABRUCK-HAMM-MUNSTER. In this movement its weight will be on its right and directed towards HAMM, from which place a strong thrust will be made southwards along the eastern face of the RUHR.
17. The thrust northwards to secure the river crossings ... will be rapid and violent, and without regard to what is happening on the flanks.
Subsequently the Army will take measures to widen the area of the initial thrust, and to create a secure line of supply.
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Re: How much planning did Monty do for Market Garden?
Aber,
I don't believe it could be done with the forces available and logistically I doubt very much if it could be done. When you consider that the weather is about to turn to crap as it always does that time of year, air support and re-re supply would also be very difficult. Will get out a map and really study this.
Thanks
Mike
I don't believe it could be done with the forces available and logistically I doubt very much if it could be done. When you consider that the weather is about to turn to crap as it always does that time of year, air support and re-re supply would also be very difficult. Will get out a map and really study this.
Thanks
Mike
Re: How much planning did Monty do for Market Garden?
I know of detailed planing of what to do after crossing the Rhine, but they were put together after Market-Garden.
Mind you, I don't think there was any advance planning what to do after crossing the Seine, or the Somme, the Moselle, the Maas...
Mind you, I don't think there was any advance planning what to do after crossing the Seine, or the Somme, the Moselle, the Maas...
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Re: How much planning did Monty do for Market Garden?
And of course, SHAEF was busy planning how to cross the Rhine and what to do next - as per Eisenhower's many directives of the first three weeks of September 1944:
What exactly couldn't be done? The Second Army operations or all the other operations that were meant to be going on at the same time?
Regards
Tom
Mike,Source: WO219/2521 – G-3 Division Plans Section
HS/SHAEF/771/1
SUBJECT No.1 RHINE RIVER; CROSSINGS OF RHINE, ADVANCE, ETC, CROSSING OF SIEGFRIED LINE PERIOD 5 SEP 44 TO 29 JAN 45.
SHAEF 370-31 Plans (Final)
6th September 1944 Copy No...27..
MEMORANDUM BY THE PLANNING STAFF
CROSSING OF THE SIEGFRIED LINE AND THE RHINE
1. A study by the Planning Staff on the best method of crossing the SIEGFRIED Line and the RHINE, prepared within the framework of the Supreme Command, AEF’s directive to Army Groups dated 4th September, is attached. Its conclusions are given in the following paragraphs – supporting arguments are in the study.
What exactly couldn't be done? The Second Army operations or all the other operations that were meant to be going on at the same time?
Regards
Tom
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Re: How much planning did Monty do for Market Garden?
Tom,
So, obviously no one in 21st Army Group said how are we going to get across the Rhine advance to the Zuider See(?), secure our western and eastern flank, move our supply base forward for our drive to isolate/seize the Ruhr, in the beginning of the raining fall season moving into winter weather period. General Freddie De Guingand was in England on sick leave, and IIRC General Dempsey proposed staying on 1st US Army's left flank and heading towards Wesel. There must be "appreciations" that lay all this out that it was feasible or that it was not feasible. I personally believe that some people thought that once across the Rhine the Germans would collapse. I also believe that "Victory Disease" was clouding the problems that were confronting the western allies at that time. I also believe that Market Garden was a stupid idea, for once I agree with Chesty Puller the shortest distance between two points is a straight line!
IIRC I did do some calculations on this once before, I should keep better notes, maybe a filing system, maybe a staff!! That is the ticket, I need a staff!
Mike
So, obviously no one in 21st Army Group said how are we going to get across the Rhine advance to the Zuider See(?), secure our western and eastern flank, move our supply base forward for our drive to isolate/seize the Ruhr, in the beginning of the raining fall season moving into winter weather period. General Freddie De Guingand was in England on sick leave, and IIRC General Dempsey proposed staying on 1st US Army's left flank and heading towards Wesel. There must be "appreciations" that lay all this out that it was feasible or that it was not feasible. I personally believe that some people thought that once across the Rhine the Germans would collapse. I also believe that "Victory Disease" was clouding the problems that were confronting the western allies at that time. I also believe that Market Garden was a stupid idea, for once I agree with Chesty Puller the shortest distance between two points is a straight line!
IIRC I did do some calculations on this once before, I should keep better notes, maybe a filing system, maybe a staff!! That is the ticket, I need a staff!
Mike
Re: How much planning did Monty do for Market Garden?
Operation Market Garden was one of those military operations that illustrates some of the complexities of real life strategy rather than a war game or purely tactical exercise.
In the theoretical world there is a single objective which is shared by all stakeholders and doesn't change. Information is freely available and shared. Well Operation Market Garden wasn't like that.
For a real world explanation check pist #4 on this thread. http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/thread ... bs.166064/
WARNING THIS THREAD CONTAINS MULTIPLE EXAMPLES OF THE USE OF THE "MILITARY" ADJECTIVE. DO NOT READ IF EASILY OFFENDED BY BARRACK ROOM LANGUAGE
In the theoretical world there is a single objective which is shared by all stakeholders and doesn't change. Information is freely available and shared. Well Operation Market Garden wasn't like that.
For a real world explanation check pist #4 on this thread. http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/thread ... bs.166064/
WARNING THIS THREAD CONTAINS MULTIPLE EXAMPLES OF THE USE OF THE "MILITARY" ADJECTIVE. DO NOT READ IF EASILY OFFENDED BY BARRACK ROOM LANGUAGE
Re: How much planning did Monty do for Market Garden?
I can recall reading somewhere that once Arnhem was captured the army would pause whilst the Sheldt was cleared and supplies built up supplies ready for the next thrust. This is why there are no detailed plans for what is next as the army wasn't going anywhere. The over by Christmas which is repeated so often was the hope that Germany would collapse like it did in the previous war not that they would be defeated on the battlefield.
Mark
Mark
You know you're British when you drive your German car to an Irish pub for a pint of Belgian beer before having an Indian meal. When you get home you sit on your Sweedish sofa and watch American programs on your Japanese TV.
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Re: How much planning did Monty do for Market Garden?
Mark,MarkF617 wrote:I can recall reading somewhere that once Arnhem was captured the army would pause whilst the Sheldt was cleared and supplies built up supplies ready for the next thrust. This is why there are no detailed plans for what is next as the army wasn't going anywhere. The over by Christmas which is repeated so often was the hope that Germany would collapse like it did in the previous war not that they would be defeated on the battlefield.
Mark
I agree, it just could not be done, and do believe they thought Germany would collapse, which I believe is a logical conclusion that someone living in a democratic state would form.
Mike