Raid of Soviet 8th Cavalry Corps at Debalzevo Feb. 1943

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Mark V.
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#31

Post by Mark V. » 10 Aug 2006, 19:51

Hi Gerst!

No trouble at all my friend, this is one of my fields of interest so any new info I come upon in the discussions (like your father's accounts that you share with us or Abel's constructive comments) is likewise very valuable for me.

As the AA F-P frontline was very fluctual it's hard to find an appropriate map, which would adequetly present the situation in Dec 42/Jan 44.

These two are the best I could find. The first one is from Rueff: Odyssee einer Gebirgsdivision. Die 3. Geb.Div. im Einsatz. Basically it shows the entire S part of Army Group's B front = AA Fretter Pico in late December - early January. You can see all three encircled German groups at Kantemirowka, Tschertkowo and of course Millerowo, plus you can notice that 304.Inf.Div.'s front was defended by strongpoints and Kamensk bridgehead.
Image
The second one is from Scheibert: Panzer zwischen Don und Donez.
Image
Another great source for more maps is Glantz's From the Don to the Dneper.

Marko

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Gerst
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#32

Post by Gerst » 10 Aug 2006, 21:09

Thank you. These are very helpful. The 1st one even answers my Kalitva River question.
The Last Victory book is short on maps and Fretter-Pico's maps look like a little kid drew them. Also, the general must not have had his papers with him because his book has a few errors.

Arnim


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Gerst
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#33

Post by Gerst » 10 Aug 2006, 22:53

I just found what appears to be a mistake in the Last Victory book. I had never been able to figure out how the 304 ID could swing their right wing back and link up with someone who was on their left and some 30 kilometers away. Page 28 states that the 304th linked up with Gruppe Kresying - it was Gruppe Schuldt! That's a pretty big mistake. Kreysing was moving west from Millerovo. Schuldt and the 304th were in the south making their way to Kamensk and the southern part of the sector.

Can someone tell me if I am right about this?

Gerst

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#34

Post by Abel Ravasz » 11 Aug 2006, 02:01

On Arnim's request, here's what I managed to gather about PZ 10A.

The train was in service in Southern Russia at the start of the 42/43 winter campaign. During 11/42, it was sent to the Chir frontline near Stalingrad to assist the Gruppe Stahel. On 7/1/43, it was still with A-A Hollidt, retreating towards the Donez line. On 16/1/43, all armoured trains, except for PZ 10, were withdrawn from the frontline, PZ 10 went to A-A Fretter-Pico. There, it was divided into two parts: PZ 10A and PZ 10B. On 4/2/43, PZ 10A went to Artemovsk on the river Sol. Next day, it was fighting at Konstantinovka. 12/2/43 PZ 10B was hit by an anti-tank gun near Konstantinovka and was withdrawn for repairs. On the next day, PZ 10A managed to reopen (clear) the rail line at Debalzevo. 15/2/43, the PZ 28, so far at Stalino, set off for Konstaninovka to replace the damaged PZ 10B. If this meant attachment to A-A Fretter-Pico, I do not know. Either way, on 20/2/43 the PZ 10A was included in the structure of PZ 28 and both set off for the river Chaplino area in PzAOK 4 sector.

Corrections, plus data more than welcome.
Hope this helps,

Abel

Image

PZ 10B

Image

PZ 10 B

Image

PZ 28

Image

PZ 28

Images courtesy of http://www.ostpanzer.nm.ru

Abel Ravasz
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#35

Post by Abel Ravasz » 11 Aug 2006, 02:20

Not sure if You know about this; I wanted to copy this info here to have a better view.

This is from another forum, info courtesy of Dr. Leo Niehorster.

I have made a few corrections/changes, those in Italics.

Armee-Abteilung Fretter-Pico 7/1/43

Gr. Gen. Lt. Kreysing
- Stab, 3. Geb Div
- Geb.Jg.Rgt. 144 (3. Geb.Div.)
- Pi.Rgt.Stab zbV 680
- Pi.Btl. 207
- Pi.Btl. 551
- Pi.Btl. 741
- Art.Abt. 934 (leFH)
- Art.Abt. 935 (leFH)
- 1 leFH SS-Art.Abt.
- PzJgKp 515
- PzJgKp 516
- Fla Zug 52
- Stosstruppe Dahl (pts/KG Schuldt)
- Italian units (cca 5-6000 men)
- Luftwaffeneinheiten
- Marsch- und Urlaubs-Einheiten
- Alarmeinheiten

Gr. Standartenführer Schuldt
a)
- Lw.Feld.Btl. zbV 100
- 4./Flak Btl 100
- StabsKp. Kpfgr. Schuldt
- 6./Flak Reg 43
- Versprengten Btl. Henschel
- s. SS-Kp. Brig.Schuldt (leiIG & Pak)
- 1 behelfsm. zus.gest.mot.Bttr. sFH
- pts/Kgr. Führer Flak Abt.

b)
- II./GR. 575 (mot) (304. InfDiv)
- Pz.Abt. 138
- II./s.ArtAbt 735 (Mörs)
- Stab, 3./Flak Abt 100

Gr. Oberst Nagel
- Turk.Batl. 784
- Marsch.Btl. z.b.V. Bitsch
- Fla.Marsch.Btl. 5
- Feldausb.Rgt. 620

Gr. Oberst Baer
- Arko 110
- Alarmeinheiten

304. Inf Div
+ Masse/Flak Abt 100

Abel Ravasz
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#36

Post by Abel Ravasz » 11 Aug 2006, 02:27

Appendix:

The Italian Ravenna Division was entered into the Donez frontline 31/1/43.It had the following composition:

I./IR 37, II./IR 38, III./IR 38 (4-5000 men), 20 mm AA batt, 75/27 AT batt, 100/17 art batt, 2 x 105/28 guns.

Thanks for this info to the crew at http://www.comandosupremo.com.


Abel

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Gerst
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Fretter-Pico

#37

Post by Gerst » 11 Aug 2006, 04:49

Thank you Abel for the excellent OOB. It is very helpful. Your information about the armored train is fascinating. I know very little about the subject. Did any armored trains run between Kamensk and Millerovo while Gruppe Schuldt and the 304 ID were battling to keep the line open during January 1943?

This is all excellent stuff. I have learned more about my father's wartime experiences since his death in 1977 than I ever learned while he was alive. Most of his stories were funny ones. I guess he did not want to relive the painful memories.

One question I do have though, since you have connections with an Italian site. Father did not have a high regard for Italian troops. He told me that on several occasions, Italian units refused to deploy unless they received a ration of wine - I recall two bottles per man as the allotment. Can anyone refute or confirm this story?

Arnim




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Gerst
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#38

Post by Gerst » 11 Aug 2006, 05:30

Ravenna Division

Abel, I just pulled a ton of information about the Ravenna division from the commnadosupremo site. Neither Fretter-Pico nor Mr. Nipe (Last Victory) gave the Ravenna division the proper credit. In fact, General Fretter-Pico's book states that the Italian commander asked to be relieved, that his division was in danger of total collapse. That may have been true, but the collapse would have been the result of heavy fighting for many days in sub-zero weather, not an irrational fear of an imminent attack by Russian armor. I am getting a totally different picture. Fretter-Pico's description of the situation when he arrived at Kamensk in late December paints a bleak picture of the Italians, without leaders and without weapons, "questionable combat value" I believe he said. I am very glad you set me in the right direction my friend. I thank you for that!

You have earned that wine ration!

Arnim

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#39

Post by Mark V. » 11 Aug 2006, 15:50

Abel, thanks for the info on the panzerzug. Gerst, I'll try to answer your first post later. From what I gather the information in Nipe seems to be correct.
Did any armored trains run between Kamensk and Millerovo while Gruppe Schuldt and the 304 ID were battling to keep the line open during January 1943?
There was an improvised »home made« armored train built by Gr.Kreysing. The locomotive was reinforced by steel plates and a couple of unservicable panzers were placed on the carriages. It was mostly used as a mobile reserve, but was then destroyed in the attempt to reach Kamensk.

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#40

Post by Gerst » 12 Aug 2006, 06:14

I really don't know how I can ever thank all of you gentlemen - Mark and Abel - for all of your help. Not only have you given me facts which I needed, you have given me perspective on these actions, and that is equally important. Sure, my father had his own views on these experiences, and I want to onclude these in his memoirs, but I also want to be fair. As there are tow sides to every argument, there are two side to every front on the battle line, and I want to include both of them. That's the only way to get at the truth.

Many years ago, my father-in-law, a US Marine WW II veteran asked my father to sum up his experiences on the Russian front. He was there from June, 1941 to August 1943, so he had a lot to draw from. He thought a few seconds, and replied" "When we had something to eat, we ate. When we had somethig to drink, we drank; but always we fought. We had to fight."

Gerst

Mark V.
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#41

Post by Mark V. » 14 Aug 2006, 00:31

Hi Gerst!

Re: Nipe

I think you have to read Nipe more closely.
Page 28 states that the 304th linked up with Gruppe Kresying - it was Gruppe Schuldt! That's a pretty big mistake. Kreysing was moving west from Millerovo. Schuldt and the 304th were in the south making their way to Kamensk and the southern part of the sector.
At the same time as this another order was issued for Kreysing to withdraw from Millerowo (see Nipe, same page). His group was then to occupy AA-FP northern flank. So, having his forces consolidated and occupying a shorter front it was thought Fretter-Pico would easier master the dangerous situation on his S flank, where his forces were overwhelmed, pushed aside (including Gr.Schuldt) and major parts of his Armee-Abteilung threatened with encirclement.

Marko

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#42

Post by Mark V. » 14 Aug 2006, 01:25

Mark V. wrote:
22/1/43
German forces (KG Schuldt?) counterattack at Kruscilovka, reestablishing Ravenna's Donez positions.
The counterattacking force was from Gr.Kreysing - II. and III./GJR144. It reduced (but not eliminated) the bridgeheads and these didn't pose immediate threat to the AA F-P front as the breakthrough later occured more to the S at Dawydo-Nikolskij. I'm not sure about Gr.Schuldt. According to Lehmann it was engaged from 13.1. E of Kamensk, then nothing till 23.1. when it again reapears as AA F-P reserve in Woroschilowgrad.
Abel, there was one other unit involved in this counterattacks KG v. Steinkeller (II./PGR7 + 1 Pz. Abt. from Pz.Rgt.25).

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Gerst
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#43

Post by Gerst » 14 Aug 2006, 04:17

According to the maps in Fretter-Pico's book Missbrauchte Infanterie, 304 ID moved south and Gruppe Schuldt did also. Some of the 304 crossed the Donets west of Kamensk, others to the east. There is no mention of any link-up with Gruppe Kreysing in the book relative to the withdrawal, only that they (Kreysing) withdrew to the west and southwest. In any case, any elements of the 304th would have had their left flank close the Kreysing group, not their right flank. Either Nipe got the flank wrong or the Gruppe wrong. I think it was the latter.

Gerst

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#44

Post by Gerst » 14 Aug 2006, 16:54

Kreysing's group retreated to Donskoy where they linked up with Panzergruppe von der Lancken (Nagel's group). The plan to etsablish a Derkul defensive line was given up and they continued to the Donets. Meanwhile, 304 ID dealt with the Soviets at Glubokij near Kamensk.

Colonel Botsch, the chief-of-staff, personally flew to Millerovo in a Storch to organize the withdrawal.

Gerst

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#45

Post by Abel Ravasz » 14 Aug 2006, 20:08

Here we go again... Gruppen :roll: :lol:
Abel, there was one other unit involved in this counterattacks KG v. Steinkeller (II./PGR7 + 1 Pz. Abt. from Pz.Rgt.25).
Fine piece of info. Steinkeller & co ended up as Komm. Fester Platz Slawjansk between 2-17/2/43.
Kreysing's group retreated to Donskoy where they linked up with Panzergruppe von der Lancken (Nagel's group).
The place was NOT called Donskoj but rather Donskaja Krasnovka. This is where the Lw Btl 100 and the Pz Abt 138 dug in.

Where is this info from? I have never heard of KG v. Lancken being part of Gr. Nagel yet.
Don/Donez
Div.Stab with Div.Jagdzug
Geb.Jäg.Rgt.144
1./Geb.Pi.Btl.83
Stab Geb.Jäg.Rgt.112
Stab II./Geb.Art.Rgt.112
Gen.Nachr.Abt.68 (el.)
Versorgungstruppen (el.)
This must be a typo. There was no such as the GebJg Reg 112.

Does anyone have the composition of the following units:

Gr. Schramm (30/12 Woroshilovgrad)
Gr. Baer (Kamensk) - based around ArKo 110, fine, but is there any better info than the generic "Alarm units"?
Gr. Lancken (Krasnovka) - according to my notes, this unit was based around Pz Abt 138 but Stoves says parts/GD made up this unit. Any hints?


Abel

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