Coud someone identify which unit saw the Kremlin spires?

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Imad
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Coud someone identify which unit saw the Kremlin spires?

#1

Post by Imad » 02 Nov 2007, 22:35

Does anyone know the German unit that claimed to have seen the sunlight glinting off the Kremlin spires in 1941? How close to the capital was this unit?

Martti
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#2

Post by Martti » 03 Nov 2007, 01:56

A reconnaissance battalion of the 258th infantry division is claimed to have come within sight of the Kremlin - about 30km away, inside the Moscow suburbs - on 2nd December 1941.


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tigre
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which unit saw the Kremlin spires

#3

Post by tigre » 03 Nov 2007, 14:14

Hello Imad, glad to greet you. Try this link, that topic was broadly discussed there....................................................................

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... highlight=

Cheers. Tigre 8-)

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#4

Post by Art » 03 Nov 2007, 15:36


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Yuri
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#5

Post by Yuri » 12 Nov 2007, 17:36

My house in 8 km on the West from the Kremlin (for orientation: it is region Fili or Mountain Poklonnaja or the Central Museum of the Great Patriotic War). My apartment on 16 floor or 50 metres over earth level. However, I cannot see spikes of towers of the Kremlin. The suburb Khimki is in 16 km from the Kremlin (I often happen there). I can not present, that from Khimki Germans (if they were in this suburb) could see towers of the Kremlin. It is possible, if only then they have risen on height more than 50 metres. However, it would be very interesting, if this history was truthful.

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#6

Post by Yuri » 12 Nov 2007, 18:16

It is a kind towards the Kremlin from distance of 6 km and from height, approximately, 40 m (my house behind 2 km). If who can see here towers of the Kremlin (on the photo centre) - accept my congratulations.
From that party, whence, ostensibly, saw a tower of the Kremlin German motorcyclists common anything it is impossible to see.
Apparently, it nevertheless a myth.

Source:
http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/tug/view/18331/
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Âèä íà Êðåìëü ñî ñòîðîíû ÌÖ.jpg
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#7

Post by Stephan » 17 Nov 2007, 18:25

Yuri. Are there other towers somewhat alike the Kremlin church towers?

Towers perhaps not camouflaged as Kremlin towers surely where, and thus possible to see from the said point 30 km from Kremlin??

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#8

Post by Yuri » 17 Nov 2007, 21:29

Stephan wrote:Yuri. Are there other towers somewhat alike the Kremlin church towers?

Towers perhaps not camouflaged as Kremlin towers surely where, and thus possible to see from the said point 30 km from Kremlin??
Here the same photo at a rate of the original (3008 x 2000 pixels)

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5/tug.0/ ... 10f59_orig


If you well are guided, that on a large photo it is possible to distinguish a cupola of the highest temple, from those that are arranged in territory of the Kremlin for it behind walls. However spikes of battle towers which are arranged on wall perimetre) it is not visible, If spikes of towers it is not visible from this place from Khimki their especially it will not be visible.

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#9

Post by Stephan » 19 Nov 2007, 11:12

I see on the photos several other towers. I suppose the highest buildings werent there in 1941?? thus the towers would be easier to spot from a distance then now.

Seen from that said point. 30 kilometres from Kremlin. And them desperately wanting to see what they want to see. Surely if they can make out a tower, or still better, the cupoles of a typical russian church roughly in the right direction - they would see believe they DO see Kremlin... :)


This is why I ask. If you Yuri, as living exactly there, know if there ARE other russian churches with cupoles - preferably between the said 30 km point and the real Kremlin,
but almost any could do...


...................

Im wondering and thinking.
I presume the Kremlin was camouflaged. I know for sure later on it WAS camouflaged and heavy defended. Thus Kremlin was per the definition impossible to see from distance, and especielly no sun glinting off the spires.
So if they did see sun glinting of spires, it was some other russian orthodox temple. OR a decoy.
Decoys being other half of a good camouflage.
The decoy arranged with lots of real flak-cannons would also be a superb death trap for the Luftwaffe.
WAS it so??

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Yuri
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#10

Post by Yuri » 01 Dec 2007, 06:28

Stephan wrote:I see on the photos several other towers. I suppose the highest buildings werent there in 1941?? thus the towers would be easier to spot from a distance then now.

Seen from that said point. 30 kilometres from Kremlin. And them desperately wanting to see what they want to see. Surely if they can make out a tower, or still better, the cupoles of a typical russian church roughly in the right direction - they would see believe they DO see Kremlin... :)


This is why I ask. If you Yuri, as living exactly there, know if there ARE other russian churches with cupoles - preferably between the said 30 km point and the real Kremlin,
but almost any could do...


...................

Im wondering and thinking.
I presume the Kremlin was camouflaged. I know for sure later on it WAS camouflaged and heavy defended. Thus Kremlin was per the definition impossible to see from distance, and especielly no sun glinting off the spires.
So if they did see sun glinting of spires, it was some other russian orthodox temple. OR a decoy.
Decoys being other half of a good camouflage.
The decoy arranged with lots of real flak-cannons would also be a superb death trap for the Luftwaffe.
WAS it so??
Yellow colour numbers buildings of characteristic architectural style, which has received popularity as the "Stalin" high-rise buildings. Visible photos on it the "Stalin" high-rise buildings are placed round the Kremlin on removal of 2-3 km (the black line on a photo specifies in the location of the Kremlin).
1 - the High-rise building on street Krasnaya Presnya - an apartment house
2 - the High-rise building on the Komsomol area - hotel "Leningrad"
3 - the High-rise building on Kotelnichesky quay - an apartment house (this building is far of the Kremlin)
4 - the High-rise building on the Smolensk area - the Ministry for Foreign Affairs
5 - the High-rise building on the Kutuzovsky prospectus (quay of Taras Shevchenko) - hotel "Ukraine".
By dark blue colour are designated:
6 - the Complex of Buildings the International Shopping centre (it American Armand Hammer has constructed. This American was personally familiar and was on friendly terms with all Soviet heads. Lenin, Stalin, Khruschev, Brezhnev, Andropov, Chernenko and Gorbachev)
7 - the Building of the Government of the Russian Federation (Russian name its White House!)
8 - the Building of the Mayoralty of a city of Moscow (this former Building of Council of Economic Mutual aid)
Between the White House (dark blue 7), a high-rise building on Krasnaya Presnya (yellow 1) and the Mayoralty (dark blue 8), the complex of buildings of the American embassy places. On a photo the new building of this complex is visible.
9 - Building of Academy of sciences of Russia
In the foreground (10 white colour) the foot bridge connecting of the Taras Shevchenko quay (Taras Shevchenko name the Ukrainian poet of 19 centuries) and Krasnopresnensky quay is visible. This bridge carries the name "Bagration". The sculpture of general Peter Bagration (11 white colour) is on the right coast Moskva River from the party the Kutuzovsky prospectus.

On entrance to Moscow and in borders of Moscow many the orthodox temples which cupolas are similar to cupolas of temples of the Kremlin. For example, near to my house the Temple with numerous cupolas (17 century).
In city boundaries Moscow (in the west and the northwest) there are big forest areas (for example, in that place where I live, there is a big forest area - "Park Fili"). These forest areas do not allow the ground observer driving to Moscow from the West, to see that is arranged far ahead.
For demonstration of it I have made of the car of a photo in city boundaries of Moscow on distance of 14 km on the West from the Kremlin. In 12 km on in other party from a place where I have made a photo, the village Perhushkovo (26 km from the Kremlin or 10 km from city boundaries Moscow) is placed. This village is known as the most east point of a headquarters of the Western front of general Zhukov. On November, 30th, 1941 on village Perhushkovo suburb the prospecting grouping of the enemy has got. Having learnt about it, general Zhukov has called in STAVKA to Supreme commander in chief Stalin and has informed that the opponent threatens to grasp a headquarters of the Western front. After that general Zhukov has told: «Comrade Stalin, I suggest to transfer STAVKA to the city of Kazan, and a headquarters of the Western front on the Belarus station». (The Belarus station places in 2 km on the West from the Kremlin). This the Zhukov's offer Stalin has answered so: « Comrade Zhukov if you move on the Belarus station your place in village Perhushkovo will be held by me».
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14km-Kremlin.jpg
14km-Kremlin.jpg (57.03 KiB) Viewed 1663 times
PokrovaInFili.jpg
Orthodox temple near my house of "The Pokrova in Fili" (17 centuries)
PokrovaInFili.jpg (132.86 KiB) Viewed 1665 times
Federation1.jpg
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Last edited by Yuri on 01 Dec 2007, 07:24, edited 2 times in total.

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Yuri
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#11

Post by Yuri » 01 Dec 2007, 06:57

For comparison here a photo of the Battle Tower of the Kremlin wall
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Battle Tower of the Kremlin wall.jpg
Battle Tower of the Kremlin wall.jpg (121.18 KiB) Viewed 1655 times
Battle Tower of the Kremlin wall-1.jpg
Battle Tower of the Kremlin wall-1.jpg (165 KiB) Viewed 1657 times

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