Were chemical weapons used in Poland in 1939?

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Ironmachine
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Were chemical weapons used in Poland in 1939?

#1

Post by Ironmachine » 22 Nov 2007, 09:17

From http://www.avalanchepress.com/WE_PreviewPart2.php:
On 3 September, a flight of German bombers dropped bombs containing sulfur mustard gas on a Warsaw suburb. Three years later the Third Reich claimed this had been accidental, and this is likely true. The Nazis certainly had no qualms about mass murder of civilians, and if they'd intended to use chemical weapons would no doubt have plastered the Polish capital with them. The Poles retaliated in kind at Jaslo in Galicia, where the German 136th Mountain Regiment encountered sulfur mustard mines placed to defend a key bridge crossing.

Conclusion
The action at Jaslo is the only confirmed instance of the intentional use of chemical weapons in the Second World War in Europe. Fourteen jägers suffered chemical burns and lung damage; the rest of the Tirolean regiment stormed the bridge and drove off the Poles. Higher command did not take the reports seriously, but the division staff decided that the Poles intended to wage this war with use of poison gas and instructed the troops to use their masks and protective gear at the first suspicious sign. This slowed the advance considerably — exactly the reaction the weapons were intended at achieve.
Anyone has more information on this actions?
Also I would be interested in any information regarding Polish capabilities in chemical warfare.
Last edited by Ironmachine on 23 Nov 2007, 18:28, edited 1 time in total.

Rends
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#2

Post by Rends » 23 Nov 2007, 00:04

Ist that a link to a gaming website?


Stephan
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#3

Post by Stephan » 23 Nov 2007, 01:33

yeah. And the name sulphur mustard gase is somewhat suspicious. Sulphur?

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Ironmachine
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#4

Post by Ironmachine » 23 Nov 2007, 09:16

Yes, it is a link to a gaming website. It is quite obvious as soon as you enter the page. So what?
And no, the name sulphur mustard gase is not suspicious. In fact, it is widely used:
The sulfur mustards, of which mustard gas is a member, are a class of related cytotoxic, vesicant chemical warfare agents with the ability to form large blisters on exposed skin. In their pure form most sulfur mustards are colorless, odorless, viscous liquids at room temperature. When used as warfare agents they are usually yellow-brown in color and have an odor resembling mustard plants, garlic or horseradish.
Sulfur mustards are variations of "mustard gas" (bis(2-chloroethyl) sulfide). Mustard gas is referred to by numerous other names, including HD, senfgas, sulfur mustard, blister gas, s-lost, lost, Kampfstoff LOST, yellow cross liquid, and yperite.
This comes from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustard_gas

Now, I have never ever heard about this event, but still the autor claims:
1) "Three years later the Third Reich claimed this had been accidental, and this is likely true."
If this is true, then there must be a reference to the claim somewhere.

2) "The Poles retaliated in kind at Jaslo in Galicia, where the German 136th Mountain Regiment encountered sulfur mustard mines placed to defend a key bridge crossing."
Somewhere there must be some information about Polish chemical warfare capabilities in 1939.

3) "Higher command did not take the reports seriously, but the division staff decided that the Poles intended to wage this war with use of poison gas and instructed the troops to use their masks and protective gear at the first suspicious sign."
The reports to the higher commands may be somewhere, and survivors from the division could remember the order regarding the masks.

4) "My grandfather told me that he knew guys who'd been gassed in 1939, and thinking this a confused result of passing time, alcohol abuse and the horrific post-traumatic effects of Mauthausen, I did not actually believe him until I researched it while in graduate school."
He seems to have obtained confirmation of the event, so there must be a proof somewhere.

Resuming, if this is a bogus the author has given too much detail, so it seems rather strange that nobody has ever heard about it.

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#5

Post by Stephan » 23 Nov 2007, 10:15

Ironmachine wrote: Now, I have never ever heard about this event, but still the autor claims:
1) "Three years later the Third Reich claimed this had been accidental, and this is likely true."
If this is true, then there must be a reference to the claim somewhere.
Not at all: A dream inside a dream is still a dream.

A "fact" part of a play-scenario can be reinforced however it want inside the play-scenario. This is still a play-scenario. A dream.

The given "fact" MAY be thrue in reality too. After all, the play do bases heavily on reality. But you can NOT use such a comment as above as anything for proof.
You can of course use the play as a startpoint for asking questions. This is proper!

Besides, the comment "likely true" talks about the happening being a accident, it isnt confirming the happening itself.



.....................

Tx for the explanation about sulphur mustard gas. Although unusual, it IS one of the correct synonyms for mustard gas.

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Ironmachine
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#6

Post by Ironmachine » 23 Nov 2007, 10:46

Stephan wrote:Not at all: A dream inside a dream is still a dream.
A "fact" part of a play-scenario can be reinforced however it want inside the play-scenario. This is still a play-scenario. A dream.
The given "fact" MAY be true in reality too. After all, the play do bases heavily on reality. But you can NOT use such a comment as above as anything for proof.
You can of course use the play as a startpoint for asking questions. This is proper!
You are completely mistaken. This is (according to the author) a wargame scenario based in real facts, not a "what-if". It is not supposed to be a dream. So if all the author's claims are real, there could be proof somewhere. That is what I am asking, if there is any proof of this event other that the author's claim. I am not using the author's comments as proof for anything, I am asking for real proofs that may be somewhere. I am saying the if the Germans really claimed there had been an accidental chemical air attack in Poland in 1939, someone may know about that claim. That's all.
Above all, you are forgetting what the author says in the Design Notes:
Design Note: My grandfather told me that he knew guys who'd been gassed in 1939, and thinking this a confused result of passing time, alcohol abuse and the horrific post-traumatic effects of Mauthausen, I did not actually believe him until I researched it while in graduate school.
These are the Design Notes, not the scenario, so no "dream inside a dream". The designer could have said that it was only a "what-if" to include chemical weapons, but he says that it was real and that he found confirmation.
Besides, the comment "likely true" talks about the happening being a accident, it isnt confirming the happening itself.
Already knew that. But anyway, thanks for explaining the obvious.

So resuming, I am not using the comments of the author as proofs. I am saying that if all the comments of the author are true, then there should be many proofs of the events depicted available. I am asking for these proofs, that's all.

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#7

Post by Ironmachine » 23 Nov 2007, 14:27

Now, this has taken me a lot of digging up, but it could be a start:

From http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9538
Hello Gentlemen,
according the very accurate researches by SIPRI (Stockholm Institute per Peace Research) mustard gas in mines was used by the Poles on 6 Sept. 1939 during the 1939 campaign on the bridge of Jaslo, on the Vistula. German losses were light (gas is a difficoult weapon and is necessary an huge concentration in open spaces to get only tactical success).
[...]the quite stronger enemy preferred to cover up these mere accidents being not going to begin a possbile escalation.
(my emphasis)

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Re: Use of gas in Poland in 1939

#8

Post by tonyh » 23 Nov 2007, 14:45

Ironmachine wrote:From http://www.avalanchepress.com/WE_PreviewPart2.php:
On 3 September, a flight of German bombers dropped bombs containing sulfur mustard gas on a Warsaw suburb. Three years later the Third Reich claimed this had been accidental, and this is likely true. The Nazis certainly had no qualms about mass murder of civilians, and if they'd intended to use chemical weapons would no doubt have plastered the Polish capital with them. The Poles retaliated in kind at Jaslo in Galicia, where the German 136th Mountain Regiment encountered sulfur mustard mines placed to defend a key bridge crossing.

Conclusion
The action at Jaslo is the only confirmed instance of the intentional use of chemical weapons in the Second World War in Europe. Fourteen jägers suffered chemical burns and lung damage; the rest of the Tirolean regiment stormed the bridge and drove off the Poles. Higher command did not take the reports seriously, but the division staff decided that the Poles intended to wage this war with use of poison gas and instructed the troops to use their masks and protective gear at the first suspicious sign. This slowed the advance considerably — exactly the reaction the weapons were intended at achieve.
Anyone has more information on this actions?
Also I would be interested in any information regarding Polish capabilities in chemical warfare.
This is highly unlikely as Hitler was against the use of gas, due to his experience during the First World War.

It was discovered after the war that Germany had possessed thousands of tons of Sarin and Tabun gasses and never used them.


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#9

Post by Ironmachine » 23 Nov 2007, 18:21

tonyh wrote:This is highly unlikely as Hitler was against the use of gas, due to his experience during the First World War.

It is supposed to have been an accident, so I don't think that Hitler's opinion has much importance here.

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#10

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 23 Nov 2007, 18:42

All I have ever run across about this, is that some Polish unit mistakenly planted three "training" gas mines near a bridge. And a German plane (or planes?) mistakenly bombed up with mustard gas bombs. Both errors , very possibly done at a real low level/, i.e. soldiers grabbing the wrong "stuff" out of an ammo dump.

Chris

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#11

Post by Ironmachine » 23 Nov 2007, 18:52

Thanks, Chris.
I already supposed that it had to be a very small affair, as it is not widely known. Still, it is difficult to understand why neither side used the matter for propaganda purposes.

By the way, a "training" gas mine with real gas inside sounds like if someone wanted too much realism in training.

And if the error was done at a real low level, it means that chemical weapons were already deployed at low levels, maybe "just in case". It opens a whole world of new possibilities.

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#12

Post by Ironmachine » 23 Nov 2007, 18:55

I have found another reference: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jas%C5%82o
Am 8. September 1939 wurde Jasło durch die Wehrmacht besetzt. Bei den Kampfhandlungen wurde in der Umgebung der Stadt von polnischen Truppen in begrenztem Umfang Lost (Senfgas) eingesetzt.[1]
The source of this is: G.W.Gellermann: Der Krieg, der nicht stattfand, S. 135–137 und 227–232, Bernard&Graefe Verlag

It seems that it is far easier to find references to the Polish incident than to the German incident.

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#13

Post by Stephan » 23 Nov 2007, 22:33

I found this mentioned also in a polish forum:
http://www.gatago.com/pl/misc/militaria/33797721.html

Anyway, way down is a german book from 1940, Alpenkorps in Polen, NS Gauverlag Tirol, 1940 mentions it, 8 sept, not 6.
It tells also about the schweizerian medic professor who did his examinations in Jaslo on 10 the wounded soldiers 20 sept, and signing the protocol in Berlin(!) the 21.

http://www.cbwinfo.com/Chemical/Blister/HD.shtml is linked to from the article; mentions our happenings, a good way down in this lenghty article. This article in english.
Edit: Both the German Warszawa-incident and the polish Jaslo are mentioned, the Jaslo more lenghy. Some other germans happenings are hinted.


Thus Ironmachines questions are answered. The described happenings ARE mentioned elsewhere too, although arent ironclad proven as yet. But it is proven the author of the play/wargame was NOT wildly inventing anomalies and non existent happenings. Not in this case anyway. :)
Last edited by Stephan on 24 Nov 2007, 02:26, edited 1 time in total.

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#14

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 24 Nov 2007, 01:27

It seems that it is far easier to find references to the Polish incident than to the German incident.
Personally i don't know anything about usage of chemical weapons in 1939, but i'm shure that biological weapons were used by Germans during the campaign in Poland - there was at least one such case; where biological weapons were used:

They were used in Poland in 1939, during the battle of the Coastal region. Stanislaw Dąbek - commander of Lądowa Obrona Wybrzeża forces reports in his report from 14th of September from Gdynia, that during the day German bombers dropped several times suspicious groceries and different items, which were contaminated by extremely dangerous bacteria:

Some quotations from Dąbeks report:

"... as early as 18.00 o'clock no serious enemy infantry actions were affirmed, however few times enemy air raids took place. From among enemy machines (planes and seaplanes) 3 were shot down. Documents found in wrecks and near corpses say that these planes belonged to squadron from Kiel-Holtenau airport ...".

"... German planes are dropping various items and groceries. Researches of them revealed, that they are contaminated by bacteria, which can evoke epidemic ...".

Source:

CAW, II/12/1. archive

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