German plan of the attack on Polish post office in Gdansk 39

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

Anyway as for the SS losses on 1 IX in Danzig:
- at least 2 were killed in Westerplatte
- at least 3 were killed in assault on Polish Post (1 from SS-HD)

I don't know. These casualties are only for Danzig:

Wegnahme der polnischen Stutzpunkte in Danzig (Polnische Eisenbahn-Direktion, Polnische Post und Beteiligung and den Kampfen um die Westerplatte).
Die Verluste des Wachsturmbanns bei diesem Einsatz betrugen:
12 Tote und
20 Verwundete

So maybe they suffered some losses on Westerplatte also during the following days - after 01.09.1939.

[crolick]

So maybe they suffered some losses on Westerplatte also during the following days - after 01.09.1939.

Unlikely. After 1 IX there was not much men-to-men fighting. Though I presume that of those 12 majority was killed on Westerplatte rather then in Danzig.

[Ponury]

Let me tell you a story. There was a time that the Free City of Danzig the Poles had to even fight to have their postmen and be able to send letters to Polish. It worked. Faced with the threat of war secretly exchanged for some postal workers trained militia HR. A plan of defense, smuggled weapons. These people resisted almost all day on 1 September 1939 In this circumstance a few years ago appeared in even a good comic, cover the picture. The youngest victim was 11-year-old girl, that SS death this small girls with flamethrower on the back, and what. Two Poles survived, the rest went into the wall shooting in Danzig-Saspe. Today the building is still defending the post office, museum and beautiful monument. Polish postmen lying on it, scattered letters, gives a weapon the Goddess ... impressive. In 1998 the Court rehabilitated the German post office, the Criminal Code of Free City of Danzig did not foresee the death penalty for the urban guerrilla that can say they did the Poles. Respect! And yet I recommend an old polish movie of year 1958 called "Free City", well shows the mood of those days. This e-mail dialogue to director of the Gestapo, "Please go: this is the area of the Polish State!"

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Ponury,

An interesting point that under the inter-war constitution of the Free City of Danzig there was no facility for executing the Polish post office workers.

However, I guess apologists would reply that on 1 September the government of the Free City declared itself part of Germany and so the Polish post office workers were thereafter subject to German law.

Unfortunately the Germans already had a recent history of killing non-military, uniformed servants of neighbouring states. None of the Czech border guards kidnapped into Germany at the time of the Munich Crisis in 1938 were ever returned and their fate remains unknown. They had also killed a Polish railway worker in a raid in southern Poland on 25 August 1939. (This was the only attack the Germans failed to call off after Hitler delayed the attack on Poland at the last minute).

A particular point regarding the Polish post office is that the Germans themselves used their own non-military, uniformed servants of state in a war crime by having the Danzig fire brigade pump gas into the post office. Definitely a case of double standards!

Cheers,

Sid.

[michael mills]

Were the armed personnel stationed in the Polish Post Office normal civilian postal workers, or were they trained members of the Polish armed forces or paramilitaries who had been smuggled into Danzig in the guise of postal workers?

As I understand it, the role of the Polish Post Office in the plans of the Polish military high command was that of a Polish armed fortress on Danzig territory, which in the case of hostilities had the mission of holding out and pinning down as many enemy personnel as possible until the arrival of the large Polish forces which had been stationed close to the border of the Free City, for the purpose of moving in and occupying it.

In the event, the Polish plan proved to be counter-productive. The Polish forces stationed close to Danzig with the mission of occupying it were all cut off and destroyed.

When I was a university student in the 1960s, I worked at the main Sydney post office every Christmas holdidays. We were taught how to sort letters, but were not given weapons training.

A particular point regarding the Polish post office is that the Germans themselves used their own non-military, uniformed servants of state in a war crime by having the Danzig fire brigade pump gas into the post office. Definitely a case of double standards!

Presumably if the Poles had won the battle of Danzig, even if temporarily, they would have executed those members of the Danzig fire brigade.

It is interesting that in April 1943, the Warsaw fire brigade (presumably staffed by ethnic Poles) was an integral part of the force under Stroop that suppressed the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. Firemen in their characteristic brass helmets can be seen in the background in the iconic photos of Stroop observing the burning of the ghetto.

I guess Polish firemen would have had few qualms about taking part in a bit of Jew-busting.

[Adam Carr]

Michael is correct about the Danzig Polish Post Office. It was built to be as much like a fortress as possible, and the staff were mostly Army reservists. It was used throughout the Free City period for intelligence gathering. As tensions rose with Germany in 1939 more Army personnel and weapons were imported. I believe that under international law as it stood in 1939, the Germans were within their rights in executing the defenders of the Post Office as illegal combatants.

As for the Warsaw Fire Brigade, there are other explanations for its presence during the Ghetto rising, the most likely being that they were there to prevent the fires set by the Germans in the Ghetto from spreading to the rest of the city. There is a discussion of this question here: http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse. ... &user=&pw= The author, Tadeusz K. Gierymski, was in Warsaw during the occupation. He also says: "firefighters from station at 3 Chlodna St. are well remembered for their efforts to help the Jews. They delivered food, provided documents, and transported the Jews in their vehicles."

[waldzee]

Were the armed personnel stationed in the Polish Post Office normal civilian postal workers, or were they trained members of the Polish armed forces or paramilitaries who had been smuggled into Danzig in the guise of postal workers?

As I understand it, the role of the Polish Post Office in the plans of the Polish military high command was that of a Polish armed fortress on Danzig territory, which in the case of hostilities had the mission of holding out and pinning down as many enemy personnel as possible until the arrival of the large Polish forces which had been stationed close to the border of the Free City, for the purpose of moving in and occupying it.

In the event, the Polish plan proved to be counter-productive. The Polish forces stationed close to Danzig with the mission of occupying it were all cut off and destroyed.

When I was a university student in the 1960s, I worked at the main Sydney post office every Christmas holdidays. We were taught how to sort letters, but were not given weapons training.

A particular point regarding the Polish post office is that the Germans themselves used their own non-military, uniformed servants of state in a war crime by having the Danzig fire brigade pump gas into the post office. Definitely a case of double standards!

Presumably if the Poles had won the battle of Danzig, even if temporarily, they would have executed those members of the Danzig fire brigade.

It is interesting that in April 1943, the Warsaw fire brigade (presumably staffed by ethnic Poles) was an integral part of the force under Stroop that suppressed the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. Firemen in their characteristic brass helmets can be seen in the background in the iconic photos of Stroop observing the burning of the ghetto.

I guess Polish firemen would have had few qualms about taking part in a bit of Jew-busting.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Iwas wondering how we made 20 plus posts without the Jews being blamed...

Secret Polish relief pincers - Michael, you just might have the plot for 'Black Sun four-" here
http://www.imdb.com/news/ni22527265/

[wm]

Michael is correct about the Danzig Polish Post Office. It was built to be as much like a fortress as possible, and the staff were mostly Army reservists. It was used throughout the Free City period for intelligence gathering. As tensions rose with Germany in 1939 more Army personnel and weapons were imported. I believe that under international law as it stood in 1939, the Germans were within their rights in executing the defenders of the Post Office as illegal combatants.

Well, most of the male Poles were Army reservists because the Polish Army was a conscription military force so the fact that they were is rather pointless.
The Danzig Polish Post Office was under Polish extraterritorial jurisdiction so the defenders had the right to defend themselves according to the Hague Conventions.
No to mention that their executions was declared judicial murder by the German court at Lübeck in 1997.

[wm]

It is interesting that in April 1943, the Warsaw fire brigade (presumably staffed by ethnic Poles) was an integral part of the force under Stroop that suppressed the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. Firemen in their characteristic brass helmets can be seen in the background in the iconic photos of Stroop observing the burning of the ghetto.
I guess Polish firemen would have had few qualms about taking part in a bit of Jew-busting.

That is correct, they probably have few qualms because fire fighting was their main purpose, they were ordered there to fight the fires, and the penalty for refusal was death.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Michael,

The personnel in the Polish Post Office in Danzig were normal civilian workers but necessarily were almost all army reservists, in much the same way that the personnel in most French post offices were necessarily likely to be army reservists or most German fishermen were likrely to be naval reservists. Universal military obligation has this result as a by-product. (Australia, of course, did not have universal conscription, so your personal experience sorting letters in an untrained and unarmed state has no relevance here.)

But that was not the issue for the Germans. The issue was whether they legally should have had fire arms available. From memory, these included two ZB30 LMGs.

The Poles were entitled to build their post office in any way they wanted. I don't know whether they actually did so, but I would suggest that events proved that they would have been well advised to fortify it to some degree. Attacks on Polish officials working in Danzig were not unknown earlier in 1939. (The Germans also built civilian dwellings with defence in mind. I have seen houses in western Germany near bridges with embrasures below the window sills of first floor windows.)

Why do you "understand it" that "the role of the Polish Post Office in the plans of the Polish military high command was that of a Polish armed fortress on Danzig territory, which in the case of hostilities had the mission of holding out and pinning down as many enemy personnel as possible until the arrival of the large Polish forces which had been stationed close to the border of the Free City, for the purpose of moving in and occupying it."? As I understand it, the Polish Post Office had no more weaponry available than was necessary to protect its occupants from a light assault. Look at the pitiful list of captured arms.

Actually, while the Poles certainly did have contingency plans for the occupation of Danzig, (and quite rightly from a professional militasry standpoint), their deployments on 1 September 1939 were not made with this aim. Because there was no immediate Polish intent for an occupation, not a single Polish soldier set foot on Danzig soil in September 1939 other than those few already there.

You write, "Presumably if the Poles had won the battle of Danzig, even if temporarily, they would have executed those members of the Danzig fire brigade." You presume too much, but it was certainly a possibility.

You write, "It is interesting that in April 1943, the Warsaw fire brigade (presumably staffed by ethnic Poles) was an integral part of the force under Stroop that suppressed the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. Firemen in their characteristic brass helmets can be seen in the background in the iconic photos of Stroop observing the burning of the ghetto." It may be interesting that Polish firemen were on hand when the Germans wiped out the Warsaw Ghetto, but it is only significant for one reason - the Germans were conducting institutional arson. I don't suppose the presence of Polish firemen had something to do with the fact that the Germans systematically torched the ghetto, building by building, occupants often still inside?

You write, "I guess Polish firemen would have had few qualms about taking part in a bit of Jew-busting." Why should we on this History Forum be interested in your (or, indeed, anyone else's) guesswork? Bring the facts here
and leave the racial (or possibly anti-firefighterist) slurs at home.

Cheers,

Sid.

[michael mills]

Actually, while the Poles certainly did have contingency plans for the occupation of Danzig, (and quite rightly from a professional militasry standpoint), their deployments on 1 September 1939 were not made with this aim. Because there was no immediate Polish intent for an occupation, not a single Polish soldier set foot on Danzig soil in September 1939 other than those few already there.

No, Sid, you are quite wrong on that point. A Polish sizable force was assembled close to Danzig, with the mission of occupying it.

I have referred to that fact in earlier posts. My source was a book by Peter Stachura, a British academic who is very pro-Polish. I will try to find the reference for you.

The reason why that Polish force did not move into Danzig was because it was smashed by the overwhelming German assault.

As for the Warsaw fire brigade, it was listed by Stroop in his report as an integral part of the force available to him for the suppression of the ghetto uprising. No doubt their role was to assist with the controlled burning of the ghetto buildings in order to force out the defenders. Their attitude to the insurgents was most likely much the same as that of the average Pole of the time.

But Sid, it was you who raised the issue of the Danzig fire brigade's involvement in the suppression of the Polish armed force stationed in the Polish Post Office. I see no difference between that and the Warsaw fire brigade's involvement in the suppression of the Jewish armed force stationed in the ghetto.

[michael mills]

Sid,

The reference to a Polish plan to occupy Danzig is in this post of mine:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... s#p1433729

The article I quoted was actually by a certain Suchcitz, in a book edited by Stachura.

The plan to occupy Danzig was not implemented because of the full-scale German invasion, which required the immediate evacuation of the forces assembled for the occupation. However, as Suchcitz points out, not all of those forces could escape.

[wm]

As for the Warsaw fire brigade, it was listed by Stroop in his report as an integral part of the force available to him for the suppression of the ghetto uprising. No doubt their role was to assist with the controlled burning of the ghetto buildings in order to force out the defenders. Their attitude to the insurgents was most likely much the same as that of the average Pole of the time.

It is a fact that their role was to limit the spread of fire to other areas of the Ghetto that were to be spared for various reasons.
They didn't take part in the fighting, they didn't force out anyone.

The commander of the Warsaw Fire Guard - Adam Biedroń-Kalinowski was nominated to the post by the underground Armia Krajowa. Many members of the Fire Guard were members of their own resistance organization, later incorporated into the Armia Krajowa.
An account of one of firefighters is here, unfortunately only in Polish.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Michael,

I would suggest that you are misrepresenting your own source and that your link actually backs my position.

Your source repeatedly shows that any Polish actions towards Danzig were to be reactive to German actions and contingent upon them.

I wrote, "Actually, while the Poles certainly did have contingency plans for the occupation of Danzig, (and quite rightly from a professional militasry standpoint), their deployments on 1 September 1939 were not made with this aim. Because there was no immediate Polish intent for an occupation, not a single Polish soldier set foot on Danzig soil in September 1939 other than those few already there."

Your own link shows that the Poles had several plans contingent on prior German actions

“The justification for intervention in Danzig in the event of a surprise coup by Germany or the Danzigers…...” i.e. Polish actions were to be reactive to prior German actions and contingent upon them.

“.….it was decided that there had to be an immediate reaction to any kind of attempted coup in Danzig.” i.e. Polish actions were to be reactive to prior German actions and contingent upon them.

“if the Germans attempted to annex it, then military action would be undertaken by the Poles.” i.e. Polish actions were to be reactive to prior German actions and contingent upon them.

“There was no plan to occupy the actual city.”

“This plan (to which the above quotes refer) was valid up to the end of May 1939.”

“By early June, there were clear indications that Danzig was arming itself…… This led Warsaw to strengthen its reactions.” i.e. Polish actions were to be reactive to prior German actions and contingent upon them.

“In August, when the situation in Danzig was such that an incident might occur at any moment, the decision to mobilise the Interventionary Corps was taken……. The new plan of reaction was not fundamentally different. The occupation of the city was still not envisaged.” i.e. Polish actions were to be reactive to prior German actions and contingent upon them.

“The plan of intervention in Danzig was only valid if the Germans resorted to a local action and not a full-scale invasion of Poland. If the latter occurred, or it was made clear beforehand that this was Germany's aim, then the whole Danzig intervention plan was automatically cancelled.” i.e. Polish actions were to be reactive to prior German actions and contingent upon them.

“When it became apparent that due to difficult communications in Polish Pomerania it would take three or four days before the Corps could intervene after a German action in Danzig………” i.e. Polish actions were to be reactive to prior German actions and contingent upon them.

“On 31 August, when it was apparent that Poland was going to be faced with a full-scale invasion, the Interventionary Corps was ordered to be evacuated.” i.e. Polish actions were to be reactive to prior German actions and contingent upon them.

I put it to you that, for whatever reason, you have completely misrepresented the nature of Polish plans regarding Danzig as illustrated in a source you yourself put up, misleadingly portraying them as proactive rather than reactionary.

A disappointed Sid.

[wm]

The Poles were entitled to build their post office in any way they wanted. I don't know whether they actually did so, but I would suggest that events proved that they would have been well advised to fortify it to some degree. Attacks on Polish officials working in Danzig were not unknown earlier in 1939. (The Germans also built civilian dwellings with defence in mind. I have seen houses in western Germany near bridges with embrasures below the window sills of first floor windows.)

The Polish post office was in the former German military hospital built in 1844.
The Polish armed fortress:

In fact this type of buildings can be found throughout the whole Germany, were (and are) used for schools or hospitals.