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Attempt of estimating casualties in the battle of Bzura

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.

Attempt of estimating casualties in the battle of Bzura

Postby Peter K on 28 Apr 2009 10:33

German divisions which participated in the battle of Bzura and Puszcza Kampinoska were:

Infantry - 3, 50, 208, 252, 221, 213, 17, 30, 24, 18, 10, 19, part of 31
Luftlande - 1/3 of 22
Armoured (Panzer and leichte Panzer) - 1, 4 Panzer, 1, 2, 3 leichte Panzer
Motorized - 29
Infantry Brigades - Netze

And their casualties were:

Fatal casualties (KIA + MIA) / WIA:

4. Pz.Div. + attached units = 735+ - 657+ / 692+ (28+ - 31+) and 1124+ - 1120+ (67+) WIA - (in period 01.09.1939 - 20.09.1939 / or in period 01.09.1939 - 20+.09.1939)
PR.35 (4. Pz.Div.) – 64 - 43+ KIA (5+) / 9 - 23 MIA (*number 64 may refer to KIA & MIA together) / 85 – 81+ (7+) WIA
--------------------------------
1. Pz.Div. = 295 - 271 (22) / 398 WIA - (casualties only in period 01.09.1939 - 20.09.1939)
2. lei.Pz.Div. = 326 (22) / 495 WIA (21) - (only up to 28.09.1939)
1. lei.Pz.Div. = 305 (22) / 575 WIA (35) or 970 men KIA / MIA and WIA - (up to 25.09.1939)
3. lei.Pz.Div.
29. Inf.Div. (mot.) = 316 (17) / 434 WIA (15) - (up to 28.09.1939)
3 ID - in period 11.09.1939 - 18.09.1939 - 121 / 211 WIA
50 ID - 261 - 202 (9+) / 397 – 394 (14) WIA
208 ID - 278 / 359 WIA
Brigade Netze - 245 / 309 WIA
221 ID - 175 / 273 WIA
213 ID - 145 (11) / 226 WIA (11) - (up to 28.09.1939)
17 ID
--------------------------------
30 ID - 795+ KIA (29+) / at least 117 and up to 500 - 617 MIA (?) / 794+ WIA (44+)
IR.26 = 287 KIA (7) / unknown but relatively high (see below) number of MIA / 246 WIA (14)
I./IR.26 - in period 13.09.1939 - 20.09.1939 = 39 KIA (1) / 87 MIA (0) / 58 WIA (5)
--------------------------------
10 ID - 428 / 956 WIA or 1535 soldiers KIA / MIA / WIA (Inf.Rgt.85 = 124 KIA / 5 MIA / 265 WIA)
24 ID - 505 - 570 / 1017 WIA
18 ID - 717 KIA / unknown number of MIA / 1294 WIA (Inf.Rgt.30 = 279 KIA / unknown number of MIA / 410 WIA)
19 ID - 400+ / unknown number of WIA (I./Inf.Rgt.73 = 51 KIA / unknown number of MIA / 110 WIA)
22 Luftlande ID - 10+ (0+) KIA
252 ID
part of 31 ID
Korpstruppen XVI = 22 (4) / 31 WIA (3) - (straty do 20.09.1939)
Maybe also part of Korpstruppen XIV = 56 (2) / 19 WIA (4) - (straty do 25.09.1939)

Of course not all of these casualties were suffered during the battle of Bzura.

I assume the following breakdown of these losses for the battle of Bzura:

KIA + MIA

4. Pz.Div. + attached units - ~150 for Mokra, ~100 for Warsaw, ~50 for other = around 450 - 400 for Bzura
1. Pz.Div. - around 100 - 150 for Bzura
2. lei.Pz.Div. - around 100 - 150 for Bzura
1. lei.Pz.Div. - 173 - 210 for Bzura
3. lei.Pz.Div. - estimated around 100 for Bzura
29. Inf.Div. - around 200 - 250 for Bzura
3 ID - at least 121 for Bzura
50 ID - around 200 - 150 for Bzura
208 ID - around 250 - 278 for Bzura (for example 309. Infanterie-Regiment lost its first KIA soldier on 10.09.1939)
Brigade Netze - probably around 200 for Bzura (was it involved in heavy combats before Bzura?)
221 ID - around 150 for Bzura
213 ID - 145 for Bzura
17 ID - estimated 400 - 300 for Bzura
30 ID - around 750 - 1250 for Bzura
10 ID - around 300 for Bzura
24 ID - around 350 for Bzura
18 ID - around 400 for Bzura
19 ID - around 200 - 250 for Bzura
part of 31 ID - estimated around 100 - 150
22 Luftlande Division - 10+ (all on 16.09.1939)
252 ID - estimated around 50
Korpstruppen XVI - around 20
Korpstruppen XIV - estimated 10 - 15

Total: 5,600 - 4,600

To this we must add casualties of other, smaller units during the battle.

This allows us to place the German losses during the battle of Bzura as between 6,000 and 5,000 killed.
Peter K
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Re: Attempt of estimating casualties in the battle of Bzura

Postby Othon on 28 Apr 2009 18:30

Polish Army casualties during Battle of Bzura:

- 18000 killed
- 32000 wounded
- 100000 POWs

So Germans achieved brilliant victory.
Othon
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Re: Attempt of estimating casualties in the battle of Bzura

Postby Peter K on 28 Apr 2009 20:30

In tactical and operational sense - yes, however not so brilliant because it costed them a lot of effort and casualties.

But in strategic sense the battle of Bzura was definitely Polish success and German failure - because it involved major German forces (both land and Luftwaffe) which could have been used in any other - more important (until the Soviet Invasion of Poland) - part of the frontline in Poland:

Situation in Poland on 17.09.1939 in the early morning:

Image

Moreover - unexpected and dangerous Polish offensive as well as later fierce resistance at the Bzura considerably delayed German air and land main offensive against Warsaw - which was very important for the German side even after the Soviet Invasion.

The battle of Bzura involved up to around 200 - 205,000 soldiers on the Polish side and around 470 - 480,000 soldiers on the German side - if including only Heer forces, without Luftwaffe.

- 100000 POWs


Rather something between 116,000 and 132,000.

Best regards,
Peter
Peter K
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Re: Attempt of estimating casualties in the battle of Bzura

Postby Othon on 28 Apr 2009 23:00

Domen121 wrote:In tactical and operational sense - yes, however not so brilliant because it costed them a lot of effort and casualties.


Yet defeat cost Poles loss of last remaining operationally significant because so far untouched land forces grouping.

Domen121 wrote:But in strategic sense the battle of Bzura was definitely Polish success and German failure - because it involved major German forces (both land and Luftwaffe) which could have been used in any other - more important (until the Soviet Invasion of Poland) - part of the frontline in Poland:


What did you say??? Aside of several days long Luftwaffe effort concentrated over Bzura remaining German ground troops in Poland were enough to secure all OKW tasks.

Domen121 wrote:Moreover - unexpected and dangerous Polish offensive as well as later fierce resistance at the Bzura considerably delayed German air and land main offensive against Warsaw - which was very important for the German side even after the Soviet Invasion.


It was unimportant at all. Ultimatum to Warsaw was given 16th September but without Polish answer. However Warsaw and Modlin defense were operationally insignificant events. Germans had plenty of time and forces to siege both fortress and wage battles in other areas.

Domen121 wrote:The battle of Bzura involved up to around 200 - 205,000 soldiers on the Polish side and around 470 - 480,000 soldiers on the German side - if including only Heer forces, without Luftwaffe.


In other words one third of German land forces in Poland. This number is not very odd as for so important victory.

Domen121 wrote:
- 100000 POWs


Rather something between 116,000 and 132,000.


Yes, if wounded soldiers are added to POW number.
Othon
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