Battle around Malinava, July 1944
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Battle around Malinava, July 1944
Hey everybody,
I reread "Tigers in the Mud" by Otto Carius recently and wondered about some statements. First, he gives the impression that after the destruction of the advance guard of the Soviet tank brigade "Josef Stalin" (anyone can confirm this unit?) in the village of Malinava his company destroyed the rest of them on the same day. The After Action Report of Major Schwaner, battalion CO, for the time period does not mention that. In there, he lists only the tanks destroyed by Carius in the village itself. Two days later the battalion destroyed another 23 tanks, however that was the day when Carius was severely wounded. I also wonder about the role the assault gun unit played in the engagements. Is there any other source that took a closer look at this battle? If anyone has some maps to illustrate those actions it would also be greatly appreciated.
I reread "Tigers in the Mud" by Otto Carius recently and wondered about some statements. First, he gives the impression that after the destruction of the advance guard of the Soviet tank brigade "Josef Stalin" (anyone can confirm this unit?) in the village of Malinava his company destroyed the rest of them on the same day. The After Action Report of Major Schwaner, battalion CO, for the time period does not mention that. In there, he lists only the tanks destroyed by Carius in the village itself. Two days later the battalion destroyed another 23 tanks, however that was the day when Carius was severely wounded. I also wonder about the role the assault gun unit played in the engagements. Is there any other source that took a closer look at this battle? If anyone has some maps to illustrate those actions it would also be greatly appreciated.
Re: Battle around Malinava, July 1944
There is some stuff mostly based on S.Morozov's work, but in Russian only:
http://zhurnal.lib.ru/m/marchenko_r_a/karius1.shtml
http://militera.borda.ru/?1-3-0-00001026-000-0-0
Some points in few words:
1) Schwaner's report gives a more realistic idea of action on 22.07.1944 than Carius' memoirs.
2) The mysterious heavy tank brigade never existed. In fact the company commanded by Carius was in action against the 41st Tank brigade (T-34 and M3 medium tanks) and the 48th Guards Heavy Tank Regiment, both from the 5th Tank Corps. The first lost some 10 T-34 destroyed at Malinovo/Malinava on 22.07, the latter - 5 IS-2.
3) Some brigade commander (major, HSU) killed by Carius is a pure fantasy. The most high-ranking Soviet tank officer killed at Malinovo on this day was captain Orlovskiy, CO of the 1st battalion, 41st Tank Brigade.
4) Ambush east of Malinovo, in which Carius allegedly destroyed 28 Soviet tanks seems to a fantasy as well. At least no Soviet tank unit ever noticed that it was ambushed in that area.
http://zhurnal.lib.ru/m/marchenko_r_a/karius1.shtml
http://militera.borda.ru/?1-3-0-00001026-000-0-0
Some points in few words:
1) Schwaner's report gives a more realistic idea of action on 22.07.1944 than Carius' memoirs.
2) The mysterious heavy tank brigade never existed. In fact the company commanded by Carius was in action against the 41st Tank brigade (T-34 and M3 medium tanks) and the 48th Guards Heavy Tank Regiment, both from the 5th Tank Corps. The first lost some 10 T-34 destroyed at Malinovo/Malinava on 22.07, the latter - 5 IS-2.
3) Some brigade commander (major, HSU) killed by Carius is a pure fantasy. The most high-ranking Soviet tank officer killed at Malinovo on this day was captain Orlovskiy, CO of the 1st battalion, 41st Tank Brigade.
4) Ambush east of Malinovo, in which Carius allegedly destroyed 28 Soviet tanks seems to a fantasy as well. At least no Soviet tank unit ever noticed that it was ambushed in that area.
Re: Battle around Malinava, July 1944
But In the Book "Tiger im Schlamm" appeared just the Village "Krivani", not Malinava. The Russian should approved their losts on the west of Malinava either(not just east).
Re: Battle around Malinava, July 1944
Where exactly? Carius write that on 22 July he attacked a group of soviet tanks in Malinava, the after-action report of the 502 Heavy Tank Battalion says the same "Shortly before 13.00 it [2nd company] suddenly met 20 super-heavy and heavy enemy tanks - IS-2 and T-34-85 at Malinava (4km from Krivani)." That follows a description how Caruis' company cleared Malinava destroying 17 tanks in the process and then advanced to Barsuki (4km east of Malinava) without considerable resistance. It appears from both sources that the tank battle occurred at Malinava, which is in agreement with Soviet documents.
Re: Battle around Malinava, July 1944
I mention only what I red from "Tiger im Schlamm" in German. And I do respect to your work.
There is no mention of a Village names "Malinava" but "Kriwani".I know these two villages are not far away from the map not book.
And do you assurance that there were no more other new Sfl. ,cavalry ,Mech.,or other unattached AFV replacement units of 4th. SA operated 10 Km away on the east of Kriwani on the same day ?
Cheers
There is no mention of a Village names "Malinava" but "Kriwani".I know these two villages are not far away from the map not book.
And do you assurance that there were no more other new Sfl. ,cavalry ,Mech.,or other unattached AFV replacement units of 4th. SA operated 10 Km away on the east of Kriwani on the same day ?
Cheers
Re: Battle around Malinava, July 1944
Do you mean "Tigers in mud" by O.Carius? I don't know what to say, because in the translation I have (Moscow, Tsentropoligraf, 2004) it is definitely said that the village name was Malinovo, and I can't find any mention of Kriwani/Krieveni at all. Again afteraction report of the 502 Tank Battalion included in the book describes the movements of the Carius' company in the following way:" ...2nd company, which followed behind the 1st company along the road Dunaburg-Izwalda according to a divisional order, recieved a new order at the railway station of Naujene. It turned from there straight to the west and moved through Krievani to the Rozitten highway in order to advance along the highway to Viski. Shortly before 13.00 it met twenty super-heavy and heavy enemy tanks at Malinovo (4km of Krievani)".
Here is that area on a map. Malinovo/Malinava/Malinovka is the village inside the red circle, Krievani is underlined with a red line:
http://i076.radikal.ru/1008/4b/cf57de310800.jpg
It appears that Carius had already passed through Krievani when he met Soviet tanks.
Then any source available definitely says that Carius engaged IS-2 tanks on 22 July. That leaves to room for doubt, because the only unit with IS-2 tanks in that area was the 48th Heavy Tank Regiment. According to the unit's report
"22.7.44 The regiment continues to carry out the assigned task of seizing the highway and railroad Dvinsk-Rezekne.
At 12.00 from the region of Malinovo the enemy opened organized fire of tanks and SP-guns. The regiment taking cover in terrain folds started a firefight with the enemy. Enemy aircraft actively operated in the air.
As a result of bombing and enemy artillery fire the regiment suffered losses - 5 tank burned down. The regiment was withdrawn from battle and laid an ambush in the forest in the forst south-east of Malinovo." (TsAMO f.3404, op.1, d.102, ll.55-56, courtesy of S.Morozov).
On the scheme showing location of lost tanks all 5 IS-2 destroyed on 22 July are situated east of Malinovka (red squares):
http://zhurnal.lib.ru/img/m/marchenko_r ... 1tbr-1.jpg
So it followes from both German and Soviet sources that the tank battle took place at Malinovo/Malinovka. Then it is known (here I rely in Morozov) then the second unit in that area on 22 July at noon was the 41 Tank Brigade/5 Tank Corps (without 2nd Tank Battalion), the rest of the corps was on a march east of Malinovo.
In general a more or less consistent picture appears. Carius with his 2nd company/502 HTB at noon of 22 July intercepted the vanguard of the 5 Tank Corps (48 GHTR and 41 TBr) at Malinovka and blocked it further advance to the east, total 15-17 Soviet tank were destroyed (how many of them by Tigers is a more difficult question). It seems that no serious action took place after that by the end of 22 July.
Here is that area on a map. Malinovo/Malinava/Malinovka is the village inside the red circle, Krievani is underlined with a red line:
http://i076.radikal.ru/1008/4b/cf57de310800.jpg
It appears that Carius had already passed through Krievani when he met Soviet tanks.
Then any source available definitely says that Carius engaged IS-2 tanks on 22 July. That leaves to room for doubt, because the only unit with IS-2 tanks in that area was the 48th Heavy Tank Regiment. According to the unit's report
"22.7.44 The regiment continues to carry out the assigned task of seizing the highway and railroad Dvinsk-Rezekne.
At 12.00 from the region of Malinovo the enemy opened organized fire of tanks and SP-guns. The regiment taking cover in terrain folds started a firefight with the enemy. Enemy aircraft actively operated in the air.
As a result of bombing and enemy artillery fire the regiment suffered losses - 5 tank burned down. The regiment was withdrawn from battle and laid an ambush in the forest in the forst south-east of Malinovo." (TsAMO f.3404, op.1, d.102, ll.55-56, courtesy of S.Morozov).
On the scheme showing location of lost tanks all 5 IS-2 destroyed on 22 July are situated east of Malinovka (red squares):
http://zhurnal.lib.ru/img/m/marchenko_r ... 1tbr-1.jpg
So it followes from both German and Soviet sources that the tank battle took place at Malinovo/Malinovka. Then it is known (here I rely in Morozov) then the second unit in that area on 22 July at noon was the 41 Tank Brigade/5 Tank Corps (without 2nd Tank Battalion), the rest of the corps was on a march east of Malinovo.
In general a more or less consistent picture appears. Carius with his 2nd company/502 HTB at noon of 22 July intercepted the vanguard of the 5 Tank Corps (48 GHTR and 41 TBr) at Malinovka and blocked it further advance to the east, total 15-17 Soviet tank were destroyed (how many of them by Tigers is a more difficult question). It seems that no serious action took place after that by the end of 22 July.
Re: Battle around Malinava, July 1944
Obvious Carius rushed Malinovo(Kriwani) without any artillery or air support.
And there were 2 shock armies operated(may some independent Armored or SPG unit muss be attached to the 22nd Army)at the same day, how do you prove ambush 10km east of Malinovo (Kriwani) was fantasy ?
Do you have the all Informations of the whole AFV units from 3 Armies ? Sorry,the unknown russ. SPG units of Armycorps disrupt me at all time,when I was reading.
Actually I don't belive Carius's results 100% cause there were some german StG (912nd, 226nd) and SPG units campaigned at the same area.I suppose some results has been added to him.
Cheers
And there were 2 shock armies operated(may some independent Armored or SPG unit muss be attached to the 22nd Army)at the same day, how do you prove ambush 10km east of Malinovo (Kriwani) was fantasy ?
Do you have the all Informations of the whole AFV units from 3 Armies ? Sorry,the unknown russ. SPG units of Armycorps disrupt me at all time,when I was reading.
Actually I don't belive Carius's results 100% cause there were some german StG (912nd, 226nd) and SPG units campaigned at the same area.I suppose some results has been added to him.
Cheers
Re: Battle around Malinava, July 1944
I didn't work with original documents, so I can't help here. The questions are better to be directed to Morozov.xyin wrote: Do you have the all Informations of the whole AFV units from 3 Armies ? Sorry,the unknown russ. SPG units of Armycorps disrupt me at all time,when I was reading.
how do you prove ambush 10km east of Malinovo (Kriwani) was fantasy ?
Pay attention that after-action report of the 502 HTB gives different information on location of the Carius's company, saying that it moved from Malonovka to Barsuki, 4 km due east and spent the night there with a small force of infantry. Engagement with soviet tanks occurred at night and several of them were knocked out, at 4.30 a.m. 23 July the company was withdrawn back. Total 2 tanks were claimed by the 502 Tank Battalion during the day. In principle there could be some connection with an ambush described by Carius here, although he results differ greatly (2 and 28 tanks claimed).
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Re: Battle around Malinava, July 1944
Found this map:
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Re: Battle around Malinava, July 1944
Note that the number of Soviet tanks claimed in the After Action Report for 22/7/44 is 23 (page 236 hardback)
This is the 6 (of 8) claimed at Leikuni by Lt. Bolter and the 17 claimed at Malinava (said to be 4 km. north of Krivani page 235)
The end of the report lists them as 17 T-34 and 6 IS II. Subtracting the 6 T-34 from the earlier action means the later engagement resulted in claims for 12 T-34 and 6 IS II. (1 extra IS II or is it the one Carius earlier claimed he mistook for a TII?)
In his book Carius claim there were 17 IS II and 5 T-34 destroyed in the village.
The entry in TIC I for this date claims 17 ISII and 5 T-34. (the total for the whole day) and then seems to add the earlier 6 that are already included in the claim to get a total of 28 tanks knocked out.
As you can see the AAR says the total was 23 tanks of which 6 were IS II.
Carius claims 23 tanks. and Schneider also says Carius got 23 tanks then gets the total for the day up to 28 tanks
5 more than the AAR.
Confusion and double counting appear rife and the myth of 17 IS II becomes reality
We even get signed prints where we now read of 28 knocked out IS II tanks!
http://www.directart.co.uk/mall/more.php?ProdID=17095
Six Tiger I tanks including Albert Kersher and Lt. Otto Carius, of 2nd Company Heavy tank Battalion 502, prepare to take up ambush positions for the soon to arrive Soviet tank brigade. In the ensuing encounter, the Tigers destroyed the entire column of 28 Josef Stalin IIs.
Signed by Albert Kerscher
and
Otto Carius.
Incidently on page 37 of Tigers In the Mud you will see a photo of Carius in his Tiger passing by the scene of an earlier action on the road between Newel and Vitibesk(4/11/43) where he claims he single handedly knocked out 10 T-34's. This photo was dated 2 days later by Caruis and you notice that there is only 1 (one) knocked out T-34. The wide panaramic view shows no other wrecks.
Odd.
I wonder where they all went?
This is the 6 (of 8) claimed at Leikuni by Lt. Bolter and the 17 claimed at Malinava (said to be 4 km. north of Krivani page 235)
The end of the report lists them as 17 T-34 and 6 IS II. Subtracting the 6 T-34 from the earlier action means the later engagement resulted in claims for 12 T-34 and 6 IS II. (1 extra IS II or is it the one Carius earlier claimed he mistook for a TII?)
In his book Carius claim there were 17 IS II and 5 T-34 destroyed in the village.
The entry in TIC I for this date claims 17 ISII and 5 T-34. (the total for the whole day) and then seems to add the earlier 6 that are already included in the claim to get a total of 28 tanks knocked out.
As you can see the AAR says the total was 23 tanks of which 6 were IS II.
Carius claims 23 tanks. and Schneider also says Carius got 23 tanks then gets the total for the day up to 28 tanks
5 more than the AAR.
Confusion and double counting appear rife and the myth of 17 IS II becomes reality
We even get signed prints where we now read of 28 knocked out IS II tanks!
http://www.directart.co.uk/mall/more.php?ProdID=17095
Six Tiger I tanks including Albert Kersher and Lt. Otto Carius, of 2nd Company Heavy tank Battalion 502, prepare to take up ambush positions for the soon to arrive Soviet tank brigade. In the ensuing encounter, the Tigers destroyed the entire column of 28 Josef Stalin IIs.
Signed by Albert Kerscher
and
Otto Carius.
Incidently on page 37 of Tigers In the Mud you will see a photo of Carius in his Tiger passing by the scene of an earlier action on the road between Newel and Vitibesk(4/11/43) where he claims he single handedly knocked out 10 T-34's. This photo was dated 2 days later by Caruis and you notice that there is only 1 (one) knocked out T-34. The wide panaramic view shows no other wrecks.
Odd.
I wonder where they all went?
Re: Battle around Malinava, July 1944
As Carius' book was at least partially written from memory the details can never be correct.
Anyway, if a column of T 34 drives down a road and is attacked from the flank by a tiger, the result is a foregone conclusion.
Anyway, if a column of T 34 drives down a road and is attacked from the flank by a tiger, the result is a foregone conclusion.
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Re: Battle around Malinava, July 1944
That is the mindset that allows a claim for 6 IS II to morph into a claim it was 28!butgen wrote:As Carius' book was at least partially written from memory the details can never be correct.
Anyway, if a column of T 34 drives down a road and is attacked from the flank by a tiger, the result is a foregone conclusion.
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Re: Battle around Malinava, July 1944
I wonder if Kozhedub got every kill corresponded by german loss record? what if not?
And about myth,russians made up Porsche's son being killed in the king tiger destroyed by Oskin.
And about the mythically number 502 king tiger.Where did this number come from?Russians claim they captured 3KTs in Sandomierz ,102,502,and 234,102 ended up wreck,502 still resides in kubinka,where did 234 go?
And about myth,russians made up Porsche's son being killed in the king tiger destroyed by Oskin.
And about the mythically number 502 king tiger.Where did this number come from?Russians claim they captured 3KTs in Sandomierz ,102,502,and 234,102 ended up wreck,502 still resides in kubinka,where did 234 go?
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Re: Battle around Malinava, July 1944
http://www.battlefield.ru/images/phocag ... ing_05.jpg
battlefield.ru's ROYAL OPPONENTS(the essay was on tankomaster1999)claims this KT was found near ogeledow.
http://modernlib.ru/books/baryatinskiy_ ... u/read_21/
But here they say the KT was on Seelow heights in 1945.
Which is true?
battlefield.ru's ROYAL OPPONENTS(the essay was on tankomaster1999)claims this KT was found near ogeledow.
http://modernlib.ru/books/baryatinskiy_ ... u/read_21/
But here they say the KT was on Seelow heights in 1945.
Which is true?
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Re: Battle around Malinava, July 1944
http://www.wio.ru/tank/ww2tanru.htm
In this page it states"the third KT destroyed by Oskin was repaired and sent to kubinka museum and still rests there".
And so far the only KT in kubinka is the 502 tank, which endangers russian claim in "Royal opponents" even more.
In this page it states"the third KT destroyed by Oskin was repaired and sent to kubinka museum and still rests there".
And so far the only KT in kubinka is the 502 tank, which endangers russian claim in "Royal opponents" even more.