Molotov-Ribbentrop pact !

[Topspeed]

I always wondered this...how on earth did Germany and USSR decide to slit up Poland and Germany let USSR take over Baltic states and Finland ?

I mean clearly this was premeditated murder of the independent national states ? What kind of people does this kinda stuff in the first place ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2 ... ntrop_Pact

[ljadw]

Why would this be deliberate murder?
Stalin had no obligations to Poland,thus,why should Soviet soldiers die to protect the ruling capitalist Polish clique (this is communist jargon ) from an attack by the ruling capitalist German clique ?
Btw:your question is wrong :Finland was not taken over by the SU,and,Germany had no obligations to Finland,thus,why should German soldiers die to prevent Finland from being taken over by the SU ?

[Topspeed]

Why would this be deliberate murder?
Stalin had no obligations to Poland,thus,why should Soviet soldiers die to protect the ruling capitalist Polish clique (this is communist jargon ) from an attack by the ruling capitalist German clique ?
Btw:your question is wrong :Finland was not taken over by the SU,and,Germany had no obligations to Finland,thus,why should German soldiers die to prevent Finland from being taken over by the SU ?

No but SU tried to take over Finland. It was a miracle that a small nation was able to stop in 105 days the soviet invasion.

My question was why did Germany let this happen..to give free hands to SU to do it ? And to many other countries as well ?

Was it because they had already "foreseen" the outcome of this, but couldn't believe finns made it through. Germans went to do such acts as returning Italian Fiat G-50 fighters back to Italy just prior to them being ferried to Finland...all according to Molotov-Ribbentrop into the letter...even when Finland was fighting for its life and very existence.

Use imagination ! 250 million people against 3,7 million !

Do you remember this; http://www.enotes.com/genocide-encyclop ... d-ii-congo and rather this;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Conference_(1884)

[Jan-Hendrik]

Stalin had no obligations to Poland

Stalin had an open bill with Poland since the polish-soviet war....

Jan-Hendrik

[ljadw]

Why would this be deliberate murder?
Stalin had no obligations to Poland,thus,why should Soviet soldiers die to protect the ruling capitalist Polish clique (this is communist jargon ) from an attack by the ruling capitalist German clique ?
Btw:your question is wrong :Finland was not taken over by the SU,and,Germany had no obligations to Finland,thus,why should German soldiers die to prevent Finland from being taken over by the SU ?

No but SU tried to take over Finland. It was a miracle that a small nation was able to stop in 105 days the soviet invasion.

My question was why did Germany let this happen..to give free hands to SU to do it ? And to many other countries as well ?

Was it because they had already "foreseen" the outcome of this, but couldn't believe finns made it through. Germans went to do such acts as returning Italian Fiat G-50 fighters back to Italy just prior to them being ferried to Finland...all according to Molotov-Ribbentrop into the letter...even when Finland was fighting for its life and very existence.

Use imagination ! 250 million people against 3,7 million !

Do you remember this; http://www.enotes.com/genocide-encyclop ... d-ii-congo and rather this;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Conference_(1884)

And,my questions are
1)Why should Germany NOT let this happen ?
2)Could Germany prevent this ? It already was at war with Britain and France
3)I don't see the relevance of the so called genocide in Congo for this discussion
4)About the Italian fighters :Germany wanted no trouble with the SU
5)your figure of 250 million is wrong :use better source

[Topspeed]

Why would this be deliberate murder?
Stalin had no obligations to Poland,thus,why should Soviet soldiers die to protect the ruling capitalist Polish clique (this is communist jargon ) from an attack by the ruling capitalist German clique ?
Btw:your question is wrong :Finland was not taken over by the SU,and,Germany had no obligations to Finland,thus,why should German soldiers die to prevent Finland from being taken over by the SU ?

Use imagination ! 250 million people against 3,7 million !

Do you remember this; http://www.enotes.com/genocide-encyclop ... d-ii-congo and rather this;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Conference_(1884)

And,my questions are
1)Why should Germany NOT let this happen ?
2)Could Germany prevent this ? It already was at war with Britain and France
3)I don't see the relevance of the so called genocide in Congo for this discussion
4)About the Italian fighters :Germany wanted no trouble with the SU
5)your figure of 250 million is wrong :use better source

Ok 192 million USSR population in 1939 !

Why should anyone nation let nations being overrun by other nations ?

Germany wanted Finland to fall under USSR command.

Try harder..Bismarck made Germany wealthy with Congo..League of Nations wanted Finland to have Congo after WW I. Where would the USSR west border have been had USSR been able to swallow Finland ?!

[Anne G,]

I always wondered this...how on earth did Germany and USSR decide to slit up Poland and Germany let USSR take over Baltic states and Finland ?

I mean clearly this was premeditated murder of the independent national states ? What kind of people does this kinda stuff in the first place ?

Well, they were both murderers already. Hitler had taken Austria and Czechoslovakia and wanted to create an empire where the Germans were rulers and other people (those who weren't killed) worked for them. To Stalin, bourgeois states were only pupets of imperialist states and "real independence" was to belong to the USSR.

BTV, Russia, Prussia and Austria had divided Poland in the 18the century. And the Russian and Austrian empires had been divided into national states only after the WW1.

[Anne G,]

No but SU tried to take over Finland. It was a miracle that a small nation was able to stop in 105 days the soviet invasion.

My question was why did Germany let this happen..to give free hands to SU to do it ? And to many other countries as well ?

Germany had no vital intests in Finland. If you make a deal of this kind, you must give thing that are less valuable to you, in order to get what you want most.

Hitler got what he wanted, i.e. the security aganist the two-front-war, most of Poland and Soviet raw materials. Plus the common border with the USSR...

All in all, it was Stalin who made the bad deal though it could be seen only after the fall of France which he couldn't foresee.

[Anne G,]

Why should anyone nation let nations being overrun by other nations ?

Not "anyone".

Great powers had done it all the time, unless they have vital interests in those countries and power to prevent the other country.

[ljadw]

Why would this be deliberate murder?
Stalin had no obligations to Poland,thus,why should Soviet soldiers die to protect the ruling capitalist Polish clique (this is communist jargon ) from an attack by the ruling capitalist German clique ?
Btw:your question is wrong :Finland was not taken over by the SU,and,Germany had no obligations to Finland,thus,why should German soldiers die to prevent Finland from being taken over by the SU ?

Use imagination ! 250 million people against 3,7 million !

Do you remember this; http://www.enotes.com/genocide-encyclop ... d-ii-congo and rather this;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Conference_(1884)

And,my questions are
1)Why should Germany NOT let this happen ?
2)Could Germany prevent this ? It already was at war with Britain and France
3)I don't see the relevance of the so called genocide in Congo for this discussion
4)About the Italian fighters :Germany wanted no trouble with the SU
5)your figure of 250 million is wrong :use better source

Ok 192 million USSR population in 1939 !

Why should anyone nation let nations being overrun by other nations ?

Germany wanted Finland to fall under USSR command.

Try harder..Bismarck made Germany wealthy with Congo..League of Nations wanted Finland to have Congo after WW I. Where would the USSR west border have been had USSR been able to swallow Finland ?!

1)Bismatck making Germany with Congo ??? This is nonsens:Congo was a Belgian colony
2)The League wanted Finland to have Congo after WWI ????This is nonsens :the League had no power to give Congo to Finland .
3)Germany wanted Finland to fall under Soviet command :PROOF ????

[Topspeed]

Read the second link I gave you...Congo Conference was in 1884.

German piece of Congo was handed to Finland after WW I ( Finland refused ).

That is what the pact means..read that too.

[merdiolu]

I always wondered this...how on earth did Germany and USSR decide to slit up Poland and Germany let USSR take over Baltic states and Finland ?

I mean clearly this was premeditated murder of the independent national states ? What kind of people does this kinda stuff in the first place ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2 ... ntrop_Pact

Answer to your question lies in three seperate historical incidents

-Versailles Treaty signed in June 1919 gave a large territory of Eastern Prussia ( belonged to Germany ) to newly created Poland including Danzig Corridor. Among other conditions of treaty ( or "diktat" as Germans later dubbed it ) this condition angered Nationalistic and far right Germans plus aristocratic members of German High Command ( who controlled High Command and Army itself ) So when Russians and Germans began to get close and cooperate with Locorno Treaty in 1923 ( both Germany and Bolshevik Russia were international pariahs then ) they viewed conquest and sharing Poland as feasible.

-Russia-Poland War between 1920-1922 was a huge cause of grudge among revolutinary leadership of Bolshevik Russia against new independent Poland. When Red Army repelled initial Polish attack on Ukranie and invaded Polish territory Lenin and his men expected a Europe wide International Revolution against every capitalist/monarchist/democratic goverment. ( Especialy in Germany when Spartacists were quite powerful in 1919-1920 ) When this did not happen and Red Army was defeated in Battle of Warshaw in 1922 Bolsheviks had to sign a peace treaty leaving Poland free and intact. So there was a natural animosity among Bolshevik leaders against Poland. Also remember that Poland was a part of Russia until 1918. Bolsheviks saw Poland just as a natural extension of their empire.

-Munich Crisis in 1938 nailed fate of Poland just like that I suppose. When Stalin was ignored and exclued from Munich Conferance ( which basicly divided and destroyed Czechlovakia as a free state to appease Hitler. By deflecting Hitler's war threat against West , Western statesmen figured that Hitler's territorial ambitions would follow Eastern route-like Hitler claimed in Mein Kampf-to Soviet Russia which Chemberlain disliked a lot , not towards West ) Soviet dictator got wary of Britain and France and pursued his own deal to get along with Hitler to divide up Poland. As a result British/French reluctance to cooperate with Soviet Russia and British/French promise to Poland's territorial integrity doomed Poland which is between two totatilarian dictatorships and had no way to get help from its new Western friends.

[Topspeed]

That is for sure that Germans were pissed off by the Versailles treaty. Also USSR wanted to expand communist-socialism at any cost. So the national-socialism somehow fascinated the far rightists in Germany or what ? Did Hitler think he'll fix some more bread for Germans from the east ( Mein Kampf ) in Bismarcks Congo style ? Did Stalin think only way to rule was to be more evil than the Czars were to compensate the unjust treatment of the common man or something ( drunk by the communist ideologies ? ) ? It was also the time of strong darwinistic thinking etc. Already Leopold IIs time the foreheads were measured and thus conclusions drawn..same politics applied with Germans toward other foreign nationalities ( except they forgot to measure their own foreheads ? ). Also strong industrialism had put speed on the wheels on roads and inside the foreheads as well ? No-one talked about the slow life back then did they ?

[ljadw]

Topspeed 1000:
you are introducing 3 totally of topic points
1)That Bismarck made Germany wealthy with Congo :as the Congo never was a German colony,this is impossible
2)That the League offered the Congo to Finland,but that Finland refused it :when ? And,it was impossible,because the Congo was a Belgian colony
3) the "genocide" in Congo :although this belongs to the War Crimes Section ,I must object to the figures given in your source ,ex. that the population in Congo was 10 million in 1924,and,because the population had decreased with 50 %(an invention),the population in 1884 was 20 million,meaning a genocide of 10 million:these are nonsens,because
1)the population in 1950(official figure) was 11 million,thus,10 million in 1924 is very questionable
2)NO ONE knew in 1924 how many people lived in Congo(and,this applies for the whole of Africa),and,I doubt that the figures for 2011 have a reliability of 1 %

[Topspeed]

I mean Congo basin...a larger area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Conference_(1884)

See the Germany's claim of 1913 there.

Anyway perhaps the Germanys seat in Congo society was offered to Finland...go figure.

The first link uses term the "The Siberia of Africa !"....endless source of resources. Since Africa was gone, perhaps AH turned his aim into USSRs vast possibilities in his expansion politics....I know he did.

Another link; http://wysinger.homestead.com/berlinconference.html

AH continued similar sphere of influence politics with USSR on Baltic States and Poland and several other countries.