enemy at the gates. historical fact?
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Sgt. Reese
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Redbaron1908
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Sgt. Reese
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Mauser K98k
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Re: enemy at the gates. historical fact?
joel pacheco wrote:.......and the murder of the little boy, if konig was real, did he actually do something like that?
According to EATG author William Craig, Sacha Fillipov, the 15 year old double agent, was a master cobbler. He repaired German boots by day, and reported German positions to the Red Army Intelligence by night. He was found out and hanged by the Germans in front of his parents. So that part of the Movie is based on fact.
I was surprised to find (reading on this forum) that the 'Zaitsev v. Koenig death match' was BS; that there was no "Major Koenig". Too bad. It was a good story. The choice of the name "Koenig" was just a little too perfect.
In Craig's EATG Chapter Notes, he mentions an interview with Tania Chernova. She (apparently) told him of the "Koenig" duel, her love affair with Zaitsev, and claimed to have been a sniper at Stalingrad. Also, Craig references Zaitsev's book Notes Of A Sniper. I wonder if he went along with the "Koenig" ruse?
I must say that to search for more base of fact from a Hollywood movie than the History Channel is an interesting turn. Its almost like going to the bigger liar for fact before the one who only tells half truths. Though Enemy at the Gates was a rather interesting movie - it was jsut that. Go back to the books from credible historians - some authors write for the HIstory Channel (!?) Oh well Nuf Said
I got this passage from a web sight.
Thorvald and/or Konig
There is great debate over wether the legendary WWII German sniper that was sent to Stalingrad to dispatch of Vasili Zaitzev was Konig, Thorvald, or even wether he existed at all. In fact in the actual Soviet war records, it originally showed up as a Maj. Erwin Konig, which is in fact a very basic and plain German Name at the time. In Vasili Zaitsev's war memoirs, he later refers to him as Heinz Thorvald, which was yet another popular German name in that time period. Thorvald seems to be the name that is used more now, and its confusing as to which it was, and if they were the same person, or one was a mistake, or wether the German Super Sniper was fabricated by the Soviet press to represent the German army, or German snipers on a "whole", and that the story was just a means of providing morale for the Soviet troops. The two names are on official Soviet war records, but there is no record of either name in the German record books (not to say they couldn't have removed the name to save grace). Any way you look at it, its confusing and debatable. Since both names appear in Soviet propaganda and war records, Konig in early war records and Thorvald in Zaitsevs memoirs and in later war records, I have included them both on the list until there is concrete proof that one or the other, or both, did not exist.
In regards to Vasili Zaitsev, there is no doubt he existed, and was a very accomplished and successful sniper.
Thorvald and/or Konig
There is great debate over wether the legendary WWII German sniper that was sent to Stalingrad to dispatch of Vasili Zaitzev was Konig, Thorvald, or even wether he existed at all. In fact in the actual Soviet war records, it originally showed up as a Maj. Erwin Konig, which is in fact a very basic and plain German Name at the time. In Vasili Zaitsev's war memoirs, he later refers to him as Heinz Thorvald, which was yet another popular German name in that time period. Thorvald seems to be the name that is used more now, and its confusing as to which it was, and if they were the same person, or one was a mistake, or wether the German Super Sniper was fabricated by the Soviet press to represent the German army, or German snipers on a "whole", and that the story was just a means of providing morale for the Soviet troops. The two names are on official Soviet war records, but there is no record of either name in the German record books (not to say they couldn't have removed the name to save grace). Any way you look at it, its confusing and debatable. Since both names appear in Soviet propaganda and war records, Konig in early war records and Thorvald in Zaitsevs memoirs and in later war records, I have included them both on the list until there is concrete proof that one or the other, or both, did not exist.
In regards to Vasili Zaitsev, there is no doubt he existed, and was a very accomplished and successful sniper.
Re: An answer
Simo Häyhä. Finland. 1939 - 1940.ChristopherPerrien wrote:Get the book "One Shot One Kill", that has a chapter on this duel between the supposed two best snipers on the East Front. It either will help in your search or is one of the many books that further this story and/or fact.
Either way It does have many excellent factual accounts by real snipers from the middle ages up to the 1980's. good book.
I had always heard the "best" (ie most kills) sniper was a Russian woman in WWII. Don't know her name, perhaps one of our Russian "comrades" know about this.
Never saw your film but I will try.
A member of the 34th Infantry Regiment and a farmer by trade, Simo Häyhä became a most feared sniper during the 1939-40 (30 November 1939 14 March 1940) Winter invasion of Finland by the Soviet Union. Using nothing more than an iron sighted Mosin-Nagant Model 28, Simo is credited with killing 505 Russians during a nine month period - a feat still unmatched today by any sniper in any conflict. The impact of Simo and men like him forced the Soviets to pay dearly for their transgressions. While Finland lost the Winter war, it cost the Soviets 1,000,000 men killed out of the 1,500,000 man invading force*. The Finns lost a total of 25,000 men in that conflict. A testament to their bravery and determination in the face of amazing odds.
He passed away on April 1st 2002 at the age of 96
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Oleg Grigoryev
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Re: An answer
you have infalted Soviet losses by magnitude of 3.Englander wrote:Simo Häyhä. Finland. 1939 - 1940.ChristopherPerrien wrote:Get the book "One Shot One Kill", that has a chapter on this duel between the supposed two best snipers on the East Front. It either will help in your search or is one of the many books that further this story and/or fact.
Either way It does have many excellent factual accounts by real snipers from the middle ages up to the 1980's. good book.
I had always heard the "best" (ie most kills) sniper was a Russian woman in WWII. Don't know her name, perhaps one of our Russian "comrades" know about this.
Never saw your film but I will try.
A member of the 34th Infantry Regiment and a farmer by trade, Simo Häyhä became a most feared sniper during the 1939-40 (30 November 1939 14 March 1940) Winter invasion of Finland by the Soviet Union. Using nothing more than an iron sighted Mosin-Nagant Model 28, Simo is credited with killing 505 Russians during a nine month period - a feat still unmatched today by any sniper in any conflict. The impact of Simo and men like him forced the Soviets to pay dearly for their transgressions. While Finland lost the Winter war, it cost the Soviets 1,000,000 men killed out of the 1,500,000 man invading force*. The Finns lost a total of 25,000 men in that conflict. A testament to their bravery and determination in the face of amazing odds.
He passed away on April 1st 2002 at the age of 96
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jpatterson
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Has anyone read War of the Rats? If not you should if you like fiction. It is the novel that the film "Enemy At the Gates" is based on and, of course, it is ten times better than the film. As I stated before on one forum or another I lent the book to a "friend" and never got it back. So, from memory, I will be bold enough to state that the author claimed that the charachter of SS Standartenfuhrer Heinz Thorvald, Headmaster of the SS sniper school, was a totally fictional character created by the author in order to give Zaitsev a nemisis to do battle with in the streets of Stalingrad. The German never existed. Again, if you can read a novel without looking for or caring about trivial inaccuracies, this book is a good read.
Later
Later
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tankdriver
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Here are 2 articles on "The Duel"
Thorvald and/or Konig
There is great debate over wether the legendary WWII German sniper that was sent to Stalingrad to dispatch of Vasili Zaitzev was Konig, Thorvald, or even wether he existed at all. In fact in the actual Soviet war records, it originally showed up as a Maj. Erwin Konig, which is in fact a very basic and plain German Name at the time. In Vasili Zaitsev's war memoirs, he later refers to him as Heinz Thorvald, which was yet another popular German name in that time period. Thorvald seems to be the name that is used more now, and its confusing as to which it was, and if they were the same person, or one was a mistake, or wether the German Super Sniper was fabricated by the Soviet press to represent the German army, or German snipers on a "whole", and that the story was just a means of providing morale for the Soviet troops. The two names are on official Soviet war records, but there is no record of either name in the German record books (not to say they couldn't have removed the name to save grace). Any way you look at it, its confusing and debatable. Since both names appear in Soviet propaganda and war records, Konig in early war records and Thorvald in Zaitsevs memoirs and in later war records, I have included them both on the list until there is concrete proof that one or the other, or both, did not exist.
In regards to Vasili Zaitsev, there is no doubt he existed, and was a very accomplished and successful sniper.
Zaitsev versus Thorvald
Chief Master Sergeant Vasily Zaitsev (and all the Russian Snipers of Stalingrad)
The name of Zaitsev has become synonymous with snipers at Stalingrad. While many of the German soldiers did not know his name, he set fear and dread into the hearts of those who did and outright desperation in those who only knew of his work. While the political commissars of his time went out of their way to turn him into a hero of the people, his record withstands their propaganda efforts. He is credited with killing 242 German soldiers during the late 1942 siege at Stalingrad. His final count tallied 400 by the end of his service in WWII. His impact on the history of battle can only be surmised but his deeds had to certainly have affected the way his enemy operated. Fear can paralyze and no fear is worse for the average grunt than that of being shot while doing nothing. To the Germans in that cauldron city, Zaitsev represented their doom. Unseen, but certain. Just raise your head above the trench and meet your maker.
Known to the world for his famous and ultimately victorious sniper duel with SS sniper Colonel Heinz Thorvald in the Ninth of January Square in the southern end of the city, Zaitsev has earned a special note in history if for no other reason than to have been known so well by his enemy and survived. But his deeds go far beyond that single duel. His success deprived the Nazis the freedom of movement so needed to take and hold ground. To the average grunt, it reduced the war to animal survival and nothing more.
The duel between Zaitsev and Thorvald (also refered to as Keonig in other reports) has long been contested as to its historical accuracy. One such comment is well worth repeating and I have agreed to add it to Sniper Country as it does have merit.
SP
Addendum by Martin Pegler
Curator of Weapons, The Royal Armouries, Leeds, UK
Scott,
While researching for a book on sniping, I used some contacts at Russian museums to look into the veracity of the much reported fight between Zeitsev and Koenig [Thorvald]. Despite the fact that Russian company and regimental records were faithfully kept even throughout the worst days of the Stalingrad seige, nowhere is this duel reported in war diaries. This would seem to be an odd omission, particularly in the face of the cult of 'Sniperism' that the Soviet press were so keen to extoll.
I tend to agree with Anthony Beevor's opinion that the shooting match never actually happened and was the result of propoganda reporting by the press who were always keen to promote new 'Heroes of the Soviet Union'. Apparently Zeitsev himself never confirmed or denied the event, an odd attitude in view of its apparent historical importance.
Thorvald and/or Konig
There is great debate over wether the legendary WWII German sniper that was sent to Stalingrad to dispatch of Vasili Zaitzev was Konig, Thorvald, or even wether he existed at all. In fact in the actual Soviet war records, it originally showed up as a Maj. Erwin Konig, which is in fact a very basic and plain German Name at the time. In Vasili Zaitsev's war memoirs, he later refers to him as Heinz Thorvald, which was yet another popular German name in that time period. Thorvald seems to be the name that is used more now, and its confusing as to which it was, and if they were the same person, or one was a mistake, or wether the German Super Sniper was fabricated by the Soviet press to represent the German army, or German snipers on a "whole", and that the story was just a means of providing morale for the Soviet troops. The two names are on official Soviet war records, but there is no record of either name in the German record books (not to say they couldn't have removed the name to save grace). Any way you look at it, its confusing and debatable. Since both names appear in Soviet propaganda and war records, Konig in early war records and Thorvald in Zaitsevs memoirs and in later war records, I have included them both on the list until there is concrete proof that one or the other, or both, did not exist.
In regards to Vasili Zaitsev, there is no doubt he existed, and was a very accomplished and successful sniper.
Zaitsev versus Thorvald
Chief Master Sergeant Vasily Zaitsev (and all the Russian Snipers of Stalingrad)
The name of Zaitsev has become synonymous with snipers at Stalingrad. While many of the German soldiers did not know his name, he set fear and dread into the hearts of those who did and outright desperation in those who only knew of his work. While the political commissars of his time went out of their way to turn him into a hero of the people, his record withstands their propaganda efforts. He is credited with killing 242 German soldiers during the late 1942 siege at Stalingrad. His final count tallied 400 by the end of his service in WWII. His impact on the history of battle can only be surmised but his deeds had to certainly have affected the way his enemy operated. Fear can paralyze and no fear is worse for the average grunt than that of being shot while doing nothing. To the Germans in that cauldron city, Zaitsev represented their doom. Unseen, but certain. Just raise your head above the trench and meet your maker.
Known to the world for his famous and ultimately victorious sniper duel with SS sniper Colonel Heinz Thorvald in the Ninth of January Square in the southern end of the city, Zaitsev has earned a special note in history if for no other reason than to have been known so well by his enemy and survived. But his deeds go far beyond that single duel. His success deprived the Nazis the freedom of movement so needed to take and hold ground. To the average grunt, it reduced the war to animal survival and nothing more.
The duel between Zaitsev and Thorvald (also refered to as Keonig in other reports) has long been contested as to its historical accuracy. One such comment is well worth repeating and I have agreed to add it to Sniper Country as it does have merit.
SP
Addendum by Martin Pegler
Curator of Weapons, The Royal Armouries, Leeds, UK
Scott,
While researching for a book on sniping, I used some contacts at Russian museums to look into the veracity of the much reported fight between Zeitsev and Koenig [Thorvald]. Despite the fact that Russian company and regimental records were faithfully kept even throughout the worst days of the Stalingrad seige, nowhere is this duel reported in war diaries. This would seem to be an odd omission, particularly in the face of the cult of 'Sniperism' that the Soviet press were so keen to extoll.
I tend to agree with Anthony Beevor's opinion that the shooting match never actually happened and was the result of propoganda reporting by the press who were always keen to promote new 'Heroes of the Soviet Union'. Apparently Zeitsev himself never confirmed or denied the event, an odd attitude in view of its apparent historical importance.