Wehrmacht: 7. ID at Yelnya Offensive

[Stephanie625]

Hello, I am seeking help with research concerning the Yelnya Offensive, specifically concerning the 7th Infantry Division. I am interested in the placement of regiments, in maps, and any other specific information. Also information about the Russian *339(?) Rifle Division, 106 mechanized rifle division, and *109 tank division, facing the German 7. ID on the Desna and just northeast. All help is greatly appreciated for an ongoing project.

*Not sure I have the Soviet divisions right, espec if the 109 is with the 5th Mechanized Corps, which I've just read was disbanded in August, so not a part of the fight in Sept?

Thanks,
Stephanie

[Art]

Also information about the Russian *339(?) Rifle Division

Definitely no division with such number was present in the area of Yelnya. The correct number most likely is 309.

Not sure I have the Soviet divisions right, espec if the 109 is with the 5th Mechanized Corps

109 Motorized and 109 Tank Divisions were different units. The latter was in the Yelnya area, the former wasn't. What kind of info are you interested in?

[steverodgers801]

All tank divisions were disbanded to brigade level due to the lack of trained commanders.

[Stephanie625]

Art: Okay, so the 309. Just from my own limited searches, I figured that 339 made no sense. What I was looking at was this:

http://www.gutenberg-e.org/esk01/maps/L ... 41b_lg.jpg

I definitely need to know what sort of units those Soviet elements were. I'm guessing now, from the map and your info, that it was the Soviet 109 tank division. What I am interested in is what sort of firepower these units were packing. Also, I'd like any info on how the German 7ID was broken down.

All I know of this battle is that it was pretty much German infantry with limited artillery support, as the panzers and certainly air cover had moved on. I know that the Germans were hit quite hard, and had to organize a fighting withdrawl about 10km west. The 19th Regiment apparently left on the 5th of September. I would also like to know if it would be possible to get casualty figures for the units in question, and any other notable information on this battle.

@Steve... at the LageOst map I was looking at, the only notation is numerical, not labeling division or brigade for the Russian forces.

[Stephanie625]

Also..... Is Wilhelm Hertlein's Chronicle of the 7th Infantry Division available in English? My Google seems to say NO...

[Art]

Art: Okay, so the 309. Just from my own limited searches, I figured that 339 made no sense. What I was looking at was this:
http://www.gutenberg-e.org/esk01/maps/L ... 41b_lg.jpg

From that map it appears to be 303 Rifle Division, at least it was on that spot on that day.
I guess some info of the type you need can be found a bit later.

[Stephanie625]

Art.... I see the 303 Rifle Division up against (position wise) the German 268 ID. I can't seem to make out the second and last numbers in a Soviet unit a bit to the south-west, facing the southernmost element of the 7th.

Also, since I am rather new to this, which is the most appropriate term, Soviet or Russian?

Thank you

[GregSingh]

Look at this map : http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/ ... /elnya.gif
It shows 333 Rifle Division, not 339. 303 is next to it, but 309 is up against German 292.ID

Not only Russians were members of the Red Army (or Soviet Army).
From the other point of view it's a safe bet that Russians were the most numerous ethnic group in Red Army.

[Art]

Art.... I see the 303 Rifle Division up against (position wise) the German 268 ID. I can't seem to make out the second and last numbers in a Soviet unit a bit to the south-west, facing the southernmost element of the 7th.

Do you mean the Lage Ost map? It wasn't exactly accurate, see the map linked by Greg. The German intelligence correctly identified the division number but confused its location to some degree, may be it was a result of Soviet regrouping.

It shows 333 Rifle Division, not 339

It must by a typo. The division with this number was in the process of formation in the North-Caucasus Military District at that moment. I guess in reality it was 222 Rifle Division.

[steverodgers801]

Soviet is the correct unless you are identifying a specific ethnic item or geographic term.

[Art]

So let's sup um what we have. The sector of the German 7 Infantry division consisted of two parts. The right facing to the east along the Stryana River with the Soviet 222 Rifle Division on the opposite side of the front was subject to probing attacks nothing decisive happened. The left part facing to the south had the Soviet 303 Rifle and apparently at least elements of 106 Motorized Divisions, it was hit my a major Soviet attack leading to abandonment of the Yelnya salient. As I understand it is of primary interest here. Is it correct?

[Stephanie625]

@Art... Yes, that is correct. My focus would be on the regiment facing the 303 and the 106. I am an author creating a historically based fictional infantry soldier involved in this battle, for a chapter in a novel, and my goal is to acquire the necessary knowledge from as many sources as possible. It has become apparent to me that, as in the case of many maps, information from any single source can have minor to major inaccuracies. The goal of a multi-pronged research approach, from reading to seeking help from this amazing forum, is to gather the clearest, most accurate perspective of this engagement. So that we are clear, before the novel goes to publication, I plan to seek permission from the forum to mention any help I receive in my acknowledgements, as well as directing readers to this forum and all my sources if they seek further information on the topic.

Am I correct to assume that only two regiments were engaged, and the third held in reserve?

@Steve... Thank you for the clarification. While individual characters in my novel may refer to "Russians" or use any other number of terms to describe their enemy, it is most important that I as the third person narrator use the correct term. I thought Soviet would be most appropriate, but needed to be sure. And you are absolutely correct; the numerous ethnic groups under the Soviet umbrella would not appreciate being referred to as Russian, as modern day current events makes so absolutely clear to me.

[Art]

Am I correct to assume that only two regiments were engaged, and the third held in reserve?

At appears to be so on 2 September from the Lage Ost map posted above. I don't have ay other info on that. BTW you can find German situation map for other days here:
http://wwii-photos-maps.com/home_page_019.htm

[Stephanie625]

Unfortunately downloading from that site isn't working for me.

If possible, I am looking for any sources (in English) that would allow me to determine the movements of the individual regiments in the 7th infantry division.

[BDV]

http://wwii-photos-maps.com/home_page_019.htm

YAW ZA.