Soviet OOB in Viaz'ma 1941

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Kelvin
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Soviet OOB in Viaz'ma 1941

#1

Post by Kelvin » 02 Jul 2014, 17:20

Hi, I am looking for complete Soviet OOB in Viaz'ma encirclment in Oct 1941 : What I got until now is Soviet units in Viaz'ma encirclment :

Western Front
16th Army and its 38,108,112 and 214.Rifle Divisions

19th Army and its 50,89,91, 166 & and 244 Rifle Divisions

20th Army and its 73,129,144 & 229.Rifle Division

Front Reserves : 101, 107.Motorized Rifle divisions, 45,50 & 53.Cavalry Divisions

Reserve Front
24th Army and its 19,103,106,139,170 and 309.Rifle Divisions

32nd Army and its 2,8,29 and 140.Rifle Divisions

What I got is 28 divisions, but I know totally 37 divisions in this encirclement area, so any members can provide additional data on this OOB, division or brigade , thank.

Max Payload
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Re: Soviet OOB in Viaz'ma 1941

#2

Post by Max Payload » 08 Jul 2014, 10:01

The first link below is to the Red Army OoB on 1st October 1941 including Western Front (Западный фронт) and Reserve Front (Резервный фронт). The second link is to a list of unit abbreviations.

http://www.tashv.nm.ru/BoevojSostavSA/1 ... 11001.html
http://fas.org/irp/world/russia/sovmil-glossary.pdf

As Lev Lopukhovsky’s recent book makes clear, the encirclement was a chaotic affair with a rapid breakdown in unit recording and reporting procedures, and I’m not sure that a comprehensive list of which of these units were completely encircled is available. Clearly the closer a unit was to Smolensk on 1st October, the more certain its encirclement (16th Army HQ excepted), but the further north, south and east the units were deployed, the greater the uncertainty.
"For what a man had rather be true he more readily believes."
Francis Bacon 1620


Kelvin
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Re: Soviet OOB in Viaz'ma 1941

#3

Post by Kelvin » 08 Jul 2014, 16:19

Hi, Max Payload, I have that link before. Mainly four Army staff HQ and its units and some units from 16th Army I have already had data on that. But I know some divisions from other armies in these two fronts, like from 29th, 30th, 31st or 43rd Armies would be also in this gigantic encirclement, but until now, I've no ideas.

Anyway, thank. :)

Kelvin
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Re: Soviet OOB in Viaz'ma 1941

#4

Post by Kelvin » 08 Jul 2014, 19:51

I recently find out 162, 242 and 251 Rifle Divisions from 30th Army, 126th Rifle Division from 22nd Army, 18th Rifle Division from 33rd Army and Western Front reserves : 134 and 152.Rifle divisions were included in Viaz'ma pocket.

And 316th Rifle Division also included in pocket, but I don't which army it belonged to.

And possibly 222nd Rifle Division,from 43rd Army, but no 100% sure

Art
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Re: Soviet OOB in Viaz'ma 1941

#5

Post by Art » 08 Jul 2014, 20:50

Kelvin wrote: And 316th Rifle Division also included in pocket, but I don't which army it belonged to.
Certainly not, it was in reserve against the Army Group North in early October:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8th_Guards_Rifle_Division
And possibly 222nd Rifle Division,from 43rd Army, but no 100% sure
Suffered seriously in early October, but survived.
126th Rifle Division from 22nd Army
Certainly outside of the pocket.

Kelvin
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Re: Soviet OOB in Viaz'ma 1941

#6

Post by Kelvin » 08 Jul 2014, 21:05

Hi, Art, thank for your information, very much appreciated. :)

In fact, is it this battle is only partly success for German ? Although 4 army staff were destroyed but see some sources said, the pocket was not sealed enough, many units even the whole division slipped out of the pocket, is it close to truth ? Thank

Kelvin
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Re: Soviet OOB in Viaz'ma 1941

#7

Post by Kelvin » 08 Jul 2014, 21:09

Kelvin wrote:I recently find out 162, 242 and 251 Rifle Divisions from 30th Army, 126th Rifle Division from 22nd Army, 18th Rifle Division from 33rd Army and Western Front reserves : 134 and 152.Rifle divisions were included in Viaz'ma pocket.

And 316th Rifle Division also included in pocket, but I don't which army it belonged to.

And possibly 222nd Rifle Division,from 43rd Army, but no 100% sure

One more division in pocket : 250th Rifle division from 30th Army.

Art
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Re: Soviet OOB in Viaz'ma 1941

#8

Post by Art » 11 Jul 2014, 09:58

That is the scheme from Lopukhovsky:
Image
So 37 ou of 58 rifle divisions of the West and Reserve Front were encircled, 1 cavalry division (45), all 9 tank brigades, 31 out of 59 artillery regiments. OOB:
in the main pocket at Vyazma:
Boldin group: 152, 214, 149 Rifle Divisons, 101 Motorized Rifle Division, 126 and 128 Tank Brigades
19 Army: 2, 89, 91, 134, 166, 244, 248 RD, 45 Cavalry Division, 127 and 148 Tank Brigades
from 16 Army: 38, 108, 112 RD, 147 TBr
20 A: 73, 129, 144, 229 RD
24 A: 8, 106 RD, 144 TBr
South-West of Vyazma:
from the 24 A: 19, 103, 303, 309, 139, 170, 222 RD, 144, 145, 146 TBr in several pockets
from the 49 Army: 29, 149, 211 RDs, 148 TBr
south-west of Rzhev: 162, 142, 251 RD from the 30 Army and 220 RD from the 49 Army.
South of Rzhev: 247 RD from the 31 Army
north of Rzhev - 126 RD from the 31 Army
Schemes:
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/ ... 9_1941.jpg
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/ ... 41_s02.gif

Kelvin
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Re: Soviet OOB in Viaz'ma 1941

#9

Post by Kelvin » 11 Jul 2014, 16:07

Hi, Art, thank so much for your data. :)

Did 32nd Army not take part in Viaz'ma ?

Art
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Re: Soviet OOB in Viaz'ma 1941

#10

Post by Art » 12 Jul 2014, 20:13

Sure it did. The 32 Army was encircled with all its divisions (2, 8, 29, 140). Al them 2 and 8 Rifle Division are included in the table above. The Army commander general Vishnevskiy was taken prisoner:
http://www.generals.dk/general/Vishnevs ... Union.html

Kelvin
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Re: Soviet OOB in Viaz'ma 1941

#11

Post by Kelvin » 12 Jul 2014, 20:46

Hi, Art, thank. :)
From the map you posted, I also see 29th RD in pocket, and I found two 149 RD, I suppose one is 140 RD, just typo error.

Kelvin
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Re: Soviet OOB in Viaz'ma 1941

#12

Post by Kelvin » 13 Jul 2014, 19:28

Hi, Art, did Boldin group equal to 32nd Army Staff HQ, since I don't see this HQ in map ? And why all his troop was all went to other Army staff HQ ? Vishnevskiy so, did not any sudordinate troop for his command.

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John Hilly
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Re: Soviet OOB in Viaz'ma 1941

#13

Post by John Hilly » 08 Sep 2014, 19:23

@Kelvin
In a way Group Boldin was an ad hoq formation.

"Konev's deputy General I. V. Boldin and a group of staff officers from Western Front headquarters moved up to a vicinity of Vadino on 30 september in order to take command over the troops assembling on the Vadino axis. An auxiliary command post and front signals station were also set-up here. By its composition of forces, Boldin's operational group was approximately equalent to an army."

IMO Boldin's HQ was not equilant to an Army HQ, although it was commanding troops about an army's stenght.

Source: Lev Lopukhovsky, The Viazma Catasthrophe, 1941. The Red Army's Disasterous Stand Against Operation Typhoon. Helion & Company 2013.

With best, J-P :milwink:
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

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