Putin – What Was Wrong with Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?

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henryk
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Putin – What Was Wrong with Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?

#1

Post by henryk » 07 Nov 2014, 21:01

http://www.thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/1866 ... uote]Putin – what was wrong with Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?
PR dla Zagranicy Peter Gentle 07.11.2014 08:56
Warsaw has criticised comments by Russia's president that Poland behaved the same way as the Nazis and Soviets in 1938 when it grabbed part of Czechoslovakia before the Germans invaded.

Russian President Vladimir Putin (R) participates in a meeting with the representatives of the parliaments of the Collective Security Treaty Organization's members, a military alliance of former Soviet nations championed by Moscow in Putin's residence in Novo-Ogaryovo outside Moscow, Russia, 06 November: photo - EPA/ALEXANDER NEMENOV/POOL

“They continue to argue over the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and accuse the Soviet Union of dividing Poland,” Vladimir Putin is reported to have told a group of history students in Moscow on Wednesday. “The Soviet Union signed a non-aggression pact with Germany. They say: ‘Oh, how bad.’ What is wrong here if the Soviet Union did not wish to fight? What is wrong with this?” the Russian president said.

Putin is also reported to have accused Poland of hypocrisy when it criticises the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact signed by the Nazis and Soviets prior to carving up eastern Europe into spheres of influence, which led to the invasion of Poland in 1939 from the west and east and the bloody 1940 Katyn massacre, which saw over 20,000 Polish officers slain by Stalin's secret police. Putin said that “Poland had got what it deserved” after the Polish army annexed part of Czechoslovakia in 1938, only for the area to be taken back when a new puppet Slovakian state supported Nazi Germany's attack on Poland in September 1939.

Poland's foreign minister Grzegorz Schetyna said on Thursday night, however, that Vladimir Putin wanted to cause Poles “unnecessary pain” with the comments. “Such is the current state of affairs in Russia. Those who signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact should feel ashamed,” the minister told the TVN24 broadcaster. “Putin has forgot already that in 1990 the Russian Supreme Council in declared the pact null and void. Such is the current state of affairs in Russia. Putin wants to cause us some unnecessary pain,” Grzegorz Schetyna said.

Tension has increased between Warsaw and Moscow since the toppling of the pro-Russian president Yanukovich in Ukraine and outbreak of fighting in the east of the ex-Soviet state, where the West accuses Putin of supporting separatist rebels. (pg)[/quote]

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Re: Putin – What Was Wrong with Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?

#2

Post by wm » 07 Nov 2014, 22:56

The area wasn't taken back, especially by Slovakia that had nothing to do with that territory, but was annexed by Germany - exactly as the Poles were afraid it would have happened in 1938.


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Re: Putin – What Was Wrong with Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?

#3

Post by ML59 » 08 Nov 2014, 10:05

Non aggression pacts with secret clauses like that between Germany and SU were common practice within all major powers all along the XIX and XX centuries. Partition pacts were signed between France and GB, for example, to agree about the spoil of Ottoman Empire. In this respect nothing unusual. Again, secret partition or sphere of influence definition were agreed upon between Churchill and Stalin on several occasion from Yalta and on, defining the future of such nations like Romania, Bulgaria and Greece.
So nothing new under the sun!
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Re: Putin – What Was Wrong with Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?

#4

Post by Halle » 08 Nov 2014, 10:27

Nothing wrong with the pact per se , as it suited both country's at the time , though ultimately it did nothing to protect the Soviets from German aggression . However , defending it now hardly helps an already tense situation in the East , as does telling Poland it " got what it deserved " - and certainly doesn't address Soviet Russia's shameless imperialism in the Baltic , Finland , and Eastern Poland at the time .

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Re: Putin – What Was Wrong with Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?

#5

Post by ML59 » 08 Nov 2014, 10:42

It's also historically true that Poland in the interwar years was ruled by a mix of conservative and military elites that professed the idea of Greater Poland, arriving to the paradox of claiming as part of Poland all territories once ruled by the Polish-Lithuanian Kingdom, where lived a large majority of non-polish speaking peoples. And repression of ethnic minorities in Poland, during '20 and '30, was very harsh indeed. Anti-semitism, ultra nationalism and catholic orthodox and reactionary influence were very widespread in Poland at that time.
This just to say that Europe after the collapse of all the three major European Empires in WW1 was a very complex mixture of different states, with different peoples, culture, religion, political systems, social conditions and nationalisms in one bucket. It's necessary to get all the complexity of the different situations before making any assessment of those troubled years.

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Re: Putin – What Was Wrong with Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?

#6

Post by wm » 08 Nov 2014, 14:31

There was nothing wrong with secret clauses and spheres of influence, they were standard tools in any diplomatic tool-chest at that time.
But joining an aggression against a sovereign state engaged in a desperate fight for survival, and determined to fight to the very end (as the history of the WW2 proved), was something entirely different.
Even the experienced, having to deal with Soviet antics every day, Polish diplomats didn't expected that. It was something despicable, rated just above raping children, not only according to the Western standards, but to the Soviets too.

As to the repressions, one of the better examples was the fact that in the twenties/thirties the Polish children in the Polish Ukraine were forced to learn Ukrainian language. And the Ukrainian culture flourished, not to mention the Ukrainian economy - solidly based on a network of Ukrainian shopkeepers, traders, wholesalers that was displacing the Jewish and the Polish business networks.

The supposedly catholic orthodox leaders mostly weren't Catholics themselves, and had no problems with the idea of punishing the "misbehaving" princes of the Catholic Church.

As to the reactionary influences I don't quite understand what they were. Maybe the fact Poland enacted its version of Obamacare in the thirties. Or supported politically, and with weapons and training the creation of the Jewish State in Palestine.

In the thirties more Jews arrived in Poland than left. A statistical Jew (usually a member of the Polish middle class, however pathetic it was) had a better life than most of the Poles. The mild anti-semitism was just a part of the internal politics, and the Poles usually were much more interested in spilling in internecine conflicts their own, figurative and real blood, than Jewish or the other minorities.

I don't know of any efforts to create Greater Poland, in fact the Poles frequently consciously limited their territorial demands, for example during The Silesian Uprisings, or negotiating the Treaty of Riga.
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Re: Putin – What Was Wrong with Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?

#7

Post by ML59 » 08 Nov 2014, 16:31

Experience tells me this is always an highly sensitive topic to be discussed in a forum, so, before being misinterpreted, I want to say very clearly that stalinism has been one of the worst and must murderous form of dictatorship ever seen, that inflicted pain and sufferance to his own people as well as to others. Having said that, European history of the first half of XX century cannot be read, especially now that ideological confrontation has no more room, in a manichean black-or-white perspective.
What Polish state claimed, at that time, to be Poland was actually inhabited by millions of people that didn't think of themselves as Polish, being part of different and distinct ethnic groups with different languages and cultures.
The eastern part of Poland was reclaimed by Soviet Union as integral part of Ukraine and the fact that SU profited of the German aggression to recover what it claimed to be part of its legitimate territory is not different from the action of the Polish government that profited of Czech state dissolution to annex, with German approval and full cooperation, a portion of the former Czech territory.
About the repression of national identities of ethnic minorities in inter-war Poland, there are a lot of vey good, doctoral level, books on the argument. And repression there was indeed, exactly as there was repression in Rumania against the Hungarian minorities or in Italy against the Slavs and German minorities and in the Czech republic against the German speaking population. Repression doesn't necessarily mean mass killings, could be anything from prohibition to teach or use ethical languages, exclusion from positions in the public administration or institutions, forced "naturalization" of family names and so on.
And about the attitude of a large part of Polish population towards the Jews living there, I suggest to you a reading of the touching book "Escape from Sobibor". You'll find there a lot of memoirs and historical facts about Polish Jews being betrayed, denounced, killed, robbed from the catholic population, even their very pre-war neighbors, including priests and nuns. To be a Jew in Poland, at that time, was very risky and tough, indeed, and not only due to the Germans.

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Re: Putin – What Was Wrong with Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?

#8

Post by ljadw » 08 Nov 2014, 16:50

One can not blame (always this blaming :roll: ) the Soviets for the pact with Germany,unless one should blame the Poles for their entry in Teschen in 1938,something one also should not do .

The argument that the result of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was bad for Poland,is something to be discarded,unless one's argument is that the acts of the SU should benefit to Poland,and,than,the question is : why ? Stalin was not the president of Poland ...afaics.

If the M-R pact was wrong,than was also wrong Lend-Lease for Britain and the SU,Munich,Yalta,the Soviet promise to attack in august 1945 Japan,etc,etc..

All pacts are benefiting one side and are hurting an other side .

The Soviet invasion of 17 september had as result that Eastern Poland was occupied by the SU and not by Germany . Why would this be bad ?

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Re: Putin – What Was Wrong with Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?

#9

Post by wm » 08 Nov 2014, 20:13

Nothing wrong with the pact although it was harmful for Russia.
And nothing wrong with the annexation of Zaolzie, a tiny Polish-Czechoslovak border conflict - not worthy of any international attention, simply because nobody was harmed by the annexation - except Czech pride.

The main European powers, and Czechoslovakia, agreed it was a good idea to hand over the Sudetenland to Germany.
Additionally they, and Czechoslovakia, agreed it was a good idea to hand over a few disputed territories to Poland and Hungary, later - maybe (so called the First Vienna Award). The Poles didn't like the maybe and didn't want any awards by the dubious grace of Germany (one of the arbiters) so they acted unilaterally.

But the fact is it was done in a peaceful manner, nobody was harmed by this, Czechoslovakia although smaller, still existed just fine.

The Nazi aggression was a war crime, and the Soviet aggression was a string of back-to-back war crimes. Both resulted in the total occupation of Poland, and if successful would result at least in a cultural genocide of the Polish nation - the intentions of both aggressors are well known today.
And this is the main difference, even disregarding the morally reprehensible stab-in-the-back.

Of course the acts of the Soviet Russia should benefit Poland, because peace was badly needed by Russia. Poland, by its very existence guaranteed peace, and made an attack on the Soviet Union impossibility. The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was a horrendous mistake.

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Re: Putin – What Was Wrong with Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?

#10

Post by wm » 08 Nov 2014, 20:19

ML59 wrote:What Polish state claimed, at that time, to be Poland was actually inhabited by millions of people that didn't think of themselves as Polish, being part of different and distinct ethnic groups with different languages and cultures.
And Poland was always like that, multi-ethnic, multi-cultural ruled by elected kings, frequently by not speaking Polish foreigners.
ML59 wrote:The eastern part of Poland was reclaimed by Soviet Union as integral part of Ukraine and the fact that SU profited of the German aggression to recover what it claimed to be part of its legitimate territory is not different from the action of the Polish government that profited of Czech state dissolution to annex, with German approval and full cooperation, a portion of the former Czech territory.
With approval of the main powers, including Great Britain, France, Italy and in fact the Czechs themselves. Poland never cooperated with Germany, it was always a political rival.
ML59 wrote:About the repression of national identities of ethnic minorities in inter-war Poland, there are a lot of vey good, doctoral level, books on the argument. And repression there was indeed.
Of course it happened along the usual repression of the political enemies. But those were as they are called today, first world problems.
Poland, ruined by the partitions, war, and the Great Depression was without a doubt a shitty place to live - for anybody, but still it was a better place, even for the minorities, than most of the countries around it.
For a Pole/Jew/Ukrainian the poverty, poverty induced criminal activity, high taxation were the main problems, not some random violations of the Minority Treaty.
ML59 wrote:And about the attitude of a large part of Polish population towards the Jews living there, I suggest to you a reading of the touching book "Escape from Sobibor". You'll find there a lot of memoirs and historical facts about Polish Jews being betrayed, denounced, killed, robbed from the catholic population, even their very pre-war neighbors, including priests and nuns. To be a Jew in Poland, at that time, was very risky and tough, indeed, and not only due to the Germans.
No it wasn't risky to be a Jew, it was risky to be a defenseless person there. And this only because of the Germans.

A defenseless Jew, woman, anyone was going to get it - before the war, and during the war. The only difference was that before the war the Polish Police was doing something about it.

And lets not expect too much from any population, even catholic during hard times. The snitching among the lower classes no matter Polish or Jewish was massive, on any subject. Moral norms spectacularly failed. Criminals were everywhere.
At least the Polish elites were doing something, mainly fighting and dying - and saving the Jews (it was calculated in Warsaw more people took part in the rescue efforts, than were fighting in the Warsaw Uprising), when the Jewish elites frequently failed.
Last edited by wm on 08 Nov 2014, 20:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Putin – What Was Wrong with Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?

#11

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 08 Nov 2014, 20:26

Would need transcripts of this talk to these students. Putin is more frank than what you see from "diplomats" who talk a-lot and say nothing, as Putin also includes subtle hints and warnings in everything he says. Can't draw much from two sentences, but basically the countries of Eastern Europe can't play on both sides (or every-side ) of the fence and not expect to get hurt .i.e- Poland 1938-39
This topic would be locked in the Lounge, :lol:

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Re: Putin – What Was Wrong with Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?

#12

Post by ljadw » 08 Nov 2014, 21:17

wm wrote:
Of course the acts of the Soviet Russia should benefit Poland, because peace was badly needed by Russia. Poland, by its very existence guaranteed peace, and made an attack on the Soviet Union impossibility. The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was a horrendous mistake.
Of course,Russia needed peace,but the rest of your argument is wrong :The Pact did not make WWII possible:the Pact was the result of Hitler's decision to attack Poland .Ribbentrop was going to Moscow to tell Stalin that Hitler would attack Poland .This decision forced Stalin's hand : he had the choice between remaining idle while Hitler occupied the whole of Poland,or trying to limit the damage .
The third possibility :to fight for Poland was out of the question :if Stalin would advance to Berlin,he would pass through Warsaw,and he had the habit to stay where he was passing .Besides:if F+ B would fight if Hitler attacked Poland,there was no need for Stalin to join them and,if B+F would not fight,why would Stalin fight .

No one could help Poland if it was attacked by Germany,and,no one could help Poland if it was attacked by the SU .

Stalin wanted peace,and,if the capitalists were starting a civil war,all the better .

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Re: Putin – What Was Wrong with Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?

#13

Post by wm » 08 Nov 2014, 22:45

Well it wasn't a binary decision: the invasion of Poland, or Stalin's advance to Berlin through Warsaw.
Stalin could have supplied Poland with weapons (as the Soviets diplomats had promised before he invaded), and/or
he could have met and attacked the exhausted by the war with Poland Germans at the Polish-Soviet border (the attack through Poland, over overextended supply lines was madness anyway), or
he could have done nothing - the end result would be the same anyway, a new German-Soviet border, nicely suitable for a Napoleon-style invasion of Russia.

He directly contributed to the Nazi war efforts, for example by eliminating Poland early he reduced Hitler's war expenditures, and shortened the time needed for the defeat of France.
Then there was the massive propaganda campaign against the Allies to the point of confusing his own subjects as to the identity of the Barbarossa invaders, some of them thought it was the British.

Germany was the only credible threat to Russia, by supporting his own enemy Stalin brought the war to Russia, and enabled the WW2 - Hitler was not going to attack simultaneously Poland, France, Great Britain, and the grumpy Stalin waiting with his army on the Polish border.
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Re: Putin – What Was Wrong with Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?

#14

Post by ML59 » 08 Nov 2014, 23:46

A lot of wishful thinking. First, main aim of Stalin was to keep SU out of any major war as long as possible; if, in the meanwhile, all opponents could bleed white each other, even better. Second, there was no chance for Poland to stay alive long enough to seriously damage German war potential; attack of soviet forces to Poland was not decisive for the final outcome of the campaign and relatively bloodless. Third, why SU should care about Polish interest instead of its own? Fourth, SU was the only country that, during the Munich crisis of 1938, offered troops and air support to Czechoslovakia if Poland allowed transit on its territory. Needless to say, Poland refused.

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Re: Putin – What Was Wrong with Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?

#15

Post by wm » 09 Nov 2014, 11:34

ML59 wrote:A lot of wishful thinking. First, main aim of Stalin was to keep SU out of any major war as long as possible; if, in the meanwhile, all opponents could bleed white each other, even better. Second, there was no chance for Poland to stay alive long enough to seriously damage German war potential; attack of soviet forces to Poland was not decisive for the final outcome of the campaign and relatively bloodless. Third, why SU should care about Polish interest instead of its own? Fourth, SU was the only country that, during the Munich crisis of 1938, offered troops and air support to Czechoslovakia if Poland allowed transit on its territory. Needless to say, Poland refused.
It wasn't only Poland, Romania refused too.
The reason was simple, the end result would be total loss of independence of Czechoslovakia (and its independence wasn't threaten by Germany at that point), and creation of the Czechoslovak Soviet Socialist Republic - thrusting deeply into the very heart of Europe.
And Stalin was talking but doing nothing. There were no war preparations, mobilization, no concentration of his Army. The Poles, the French knew that.
Additionally the Red Army, and in fact the entire country, were in the midst of reorganization, to the tune of a thousand executions per day - they didn't have time, and capabilities for such trifles like an intervention in Czechoslovakia.

The Soviet attack was decisive, because it disrupted the quite reasonable Polish plan of defense along the Romanian Bridgehead, and prevented an orderly evacuation of the Polish Army to France, robbing the Allies of over a half a million, badly needed, experienced, well trained, and highly motivated soldiers, and officers.
Last edited by wm on 09 Nov 2014, 13:00, edited 1 time in total.

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