Guderians turn south

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steverodgers801
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Guderians turn south

#1

Post by steverodgers801 » 04 Feb 2015, 07:46

I had a thought, when Hitler refused to continue towards Moscow and insisted on going south, the German plan was to split up the PZ group, one part south and one part east. Guderian refused to have his group split up, because he was afraid he would not get that part back. I wonder if he insisted on taking the whole group south as a bluff, thinking Hitler would then change his mind. When Hitler agreed Guderian was then stuck and couldn't or wouldn't agree to the split

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JC
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Re: Guderians turn south

#2

Post by JC » 06 Feb 2015, 20:09

In the end Hitler convinced Guderian that turning south into Ukraine was the proper thing to do, and agreed to leave the Panzergruppe intact. This made v.Bock and Halder furious. Halder still took away Guderian's strongest Corps, XXXXVI Pz.K., but returned it 10 days later.

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ViKinG
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Re: Guderians turn south

#3

Post by ViKinG » 09 Feb 2015, 10:11

Guderian never agreed with the turn south and advocated for the push on Moscow since the beginning. Halder sent him to see Hitler to convince him against turning south. When Guderian realised Hitler's mind would not be changed on the subject he reluctantly accepted it and demanded that the operation be done as soon as possible. Obviously Guderian figured the sooner he got the south operation over with the quicker Hitler would green light the Moscow attack. This angered Halder and Bock as they sent Guderian to plead not to go south. Guderian's panzer group was indeed split initially because of the heavy fighting in the Yel'nya salient where several of his units were closely engaged. He received what he personally quoted as 'drop by drop' method of reinforcement by Bock over the next week once Infantry units arrived to relieve Guderian's forces in the salient. But Guderian never wanted to attack south, he argued the Moscow advance until the very last second.

Luc.

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JC
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Re: Guderians turn south

#4

Post by JC » 09 Feb 2015, 16:15

You're quite right. Unfortunately I was quoting a source that I should have known to be unreliable when I said the Hitler had convinced Guderian that turning south was the thing to do. Mea Culpa.

BR.............JC

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ViKinG
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Re: Guderians turn south

#5

Post by ViKinG » 10 Feb 2015, 00:53

No worries! I'm my opinion there was no correct move to make at this point. Hitler's indecisive character in the later summer along with German high command as to where to turn next was a clear indication that the German Army didn't have the strength to defeat the Red Army. Turning south yielded a massive net of prisoners in the Kiev pocket but also allowed precious time for Stalin to line up freshly raised armies in front of the Moscow axis. Forging to Moscow would have left the massive group of Red army soldiers in the Kiev pocket un-challenged and a real threat to Guderian's right flank. Its a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. I think they made the most logical move by turning south towards Kiev, but once the time came for Moscow, the German army in the east was a spent force that essentially won itself to death during the summer to quote David Stahel. Operation Typhoon had no chance of success given their current logistical nightmare, worn out units and dedicated Red army resistance.

Luc

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JC
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Re: Guderians turn south

#6

Post by JC » 10 Feb 2015, 22:36

The one thing they might have done at that point to create a different outcome would have been for 1st Panzergruppe & 2 Panzergruppe to continue south thru the Donbass to Rostov. Then in the Spring they have more options.

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Re: Guderians turn south

#7

Post by ViKinG » 11 Feb 2015, 00:12

The only problem with that is Guderian's panzergruppe would have its entire left flank open from the Soviet Reserve front as well as to the new line of armies stacked in the Vyazma-Bryanzk line by Stalin. The Soviets were massing their reserves on the Moscow axis so a push in the south might have been easier and covered more ground, but since Barbarossa's objective was to destroy the Red Army, Moscow was the way to go to achieve that.

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Re: Guderians turn south

#8

Post by steverodgers801 » 11 Feb 2015, 04:51

JC AGS did reach Rostov, but did not have the manpower to hold it.

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JC
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Re: Guderians turn south

#9

Post by JC » 11 Feb 2015, 22:53

Well, if Panzergruppe 2 had been there maybe they could have held it.

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Re: Guderians turn south

#10

Post by Erwinn » 12 Feb 2015, 14:59

How pathetic was Halder? Sending a corps commander to persuade Hitler?

steverodgers801
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Re: Guderians turn south

#11

Post by steverodgers801 » 13 Feb 2015, 01:58

Guderian was very influential with Hitler

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Re: Guderians turn south

#12

Post by steverodgers801 » 13 Feb 2015, 01:59

Armored units cant hold territory JC

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ViKinG
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Re: Guderians turn south

#13

Post by ViKinG » 13 Feb 2015, 13:38

Rostov is even further away from Kiev then the distance panzergruppe 2 had to cover to reach Moscow, which they didn't have the resources or the strength for. Therefore there is no way panzergruppe 2 could have made any difference in the south considering they would likely have bogged down on their way to Rostov.

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JC
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Re: Guderians turn south

#14

Post by JC » 13 Feb 2015, 20:20

Armored units cant hold territory JC
Well, that may be true, but only in a literal sense. Armored units can certainly deter an attack by an aggressor who sees that if he attacks that infantry unit holding the front, he might be counter-attacked and annihilated by that armored unit sitting behind the front. As to the events under discussion here, I offer this quote from Thunder on the Dnepr, by Fugate & Dvoretsky:


"Zhukov and Budenny believed that Army Group South, strengthened by an additional panzer group, would have no trouble overrunning all of the Soviet Union in the south up to the Volga, including the Caucasus....Unless the Germans chose to put their own necks in the noose that had been so carefully prepared for them around Moscow, there could be little hope of winning the war."
Rostov is even further away from Kiev then the distance panzergruppe 2 had to cover to reach Moscow, which they didn't have the resources or the strength for. Therefore there is no way panzergruppe 2 could have made any difference in the south considering they would likely have bogged down on their way to Rostov.
From Lochvitsa to Moscow is 427 miles, from Lochvitsa to Rostov is 369 miles, and Panzergruppe 1 didn’t bog down on the way to Rostov.

I have no desire what so ever to enter into a debate about the usefulness of any particular strategy or operation. What-ifs and could-of-beens simply don’t interest me. I posted my original comment in this thread only to indicate that such an alternative may have been the only option at that point that could have actually altered the outcome.


JC

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Re: Guderians turn south

#15

Post by steverodgers801 » 13 Feb 2015, 21:36

Sorry but the fugate claim about taking the caucausus is preposterous. The distance from Baku to Rostov is the same as Rostov to the Romanian border. Mostly, there was not the infantry to hold such vast territory, regardless how weak the SOviets were

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