Was the Soviet Union preparing to attack Germany?

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
Locked
Lagami
Member
Posts: 43
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 05:46
Location: Germany

Re: Was Soviet Union preparing to attack the Germany?

#1396

Post by Lagami » 03 Mar 2016, 06:29

I took a quick look over this almost 100 pages of discussion about this complex topic and had a great read!
However, there is something I couldn't find anything about which I have read about recently: The Germans allegedly found maps of Germany on the Soviet soldiers when they invaded Russia. Is there any truth to this?
Obviously there would be no explanation for them to carry around maps of Germany if they only planned to defend their homeland.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15588
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: Was Soviet Union preparing to attack the Germany?

#1397

Post by ljadw » 03 Mar 2016, 07:56

This is not so : the Soviet strategy in case of a German attack was to stop the invaders, to push them back to the border and than to advance to Berlin . One can not expect that the Soviets would stop at the border .


Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 7028
Joined: 04 Jun 2004, 20:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Was Soviet Union preparing to attack the Germany?

#1398

Post by Art » 03 Mar 2016, 09:01

Lagami wrote: However, there is something I couldn't find anything about which I have read about recently: The Germans allegedly found maps of Germany on the Soviet soldiers when they invaded Russia.
Right on private soldiers? I doubt that. Sure there was a stock of military maps of Germany and other European states.
"If enemy forces a war upon us the Red Army will be the most attacking of all ever attacking armies.
We will be waging an offesnive war with a decisive goal of completely defeating the enemy on his own territory"
The offensive character of the military doctrine was not a secret, it was openly emphasized as evidenced by the field service manual 1939 quoted above.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Was Soviet Union preparing to attack the Germany?

#1399

Post by Sid Guttridge » 03 Mar 2016, 18:57

Hi Lagami,

I rather hope (1) the British Army has every possible map of every country on the planet and (2) that it is not currently planning to invade them.

Possession of such maps is the duty of general staffs everywhere. Failure to have them would represent a dereliction of professional duty.

Similarly, it is only prudent to have defensive, counter-offensive and even pre-emptive plans for war with neighbouring states, particularly if they are of a hostile character. Without doubt this latter characterization applies to the attitude of Nazi Germany towards the USSR.

Such maps and plans do represent a smoking gun. What is required is evidence of political intent to implement them.

In the USSR's case, its general internationalist programme was self proclaimed and well known, so all its neighbours had strategic reasons to be suspicious of it. However, there seems not to be evidence that the Red Army was poised for an imminent offensive in mid-1941 that justified an immediate pre-emptive strike by Germany.

Cheers,

Sid.

User avatar
imi912
Banned
Posts: 27
Joined: 25 Nov 2015, 22:34
Location: EU

Re: Was Soviet Union preparing to attack the Germany?

#1400

Post by imi912 » 25 Jul 2016, 06:53

Possibly
The Barbarossa military operation began because the Russians attacked in as the north of Finland and Romania from the East, Hitler believed that Stalin wants to fence Germany
The German border is already one month before the Barbarossa begins, active combat activities took place between the Germans and the Russians and Russian planes invading the German territories sometimes

Omeganian
Member
Posts: 234
Joined: 02 Jan 2012, 17:53

Re: Was Soviet Union preparing to attack the Germany?

#1401

Post by Omeganian » 26 Jul 2016, 07:00

Sid Guttridge wrote: I rather hope (1) the British Army has every possible map of every country on the planet and (2) that it is not currently planning to invade them.
In sufficient quality for military purposes? Doubtful. Printed in quantity? Most certainly not. Before the current times of cheap data? Laughable.
Sid Guttridge wrote:What is required is evidence of political intent to implement them.
Which basically means you require evidence of private thoughts. How the heck do you get that?
Sid Guttridge wrote:However, there seems not to be evidence that the Red Army was poised for an imminent offensive in mid-1941 that justified an immediate pre-emptive strike by Germany.
Offensive plans have been found. The actual distribution of the Soviet forces matches them as closely as one would expect a plan to match reality.

User avatar
BDV
Member
Posts: 3704
Joined: 10 Apr 2009, 17:11

Re: Was Soviet Union preparing to attack the Germany?

#1402

Post by BDV » 26 Jul 2016, 16:04

Omeganian wrote:Offensive plans have been found. The actual distribution of the Soviet forces matches them as closely as one would expect a plan to match reality.
Such claims have been made repeatedly by Germany and its apologists, about multiple occasions (see Belgium WWI).

The weight of the proof falls on those that accuse Sovjet Union of such thoughts.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

Omeganian
Member
Posts: 234
Joined: 02 Jan 2012, 17:53

Re: Was Soviet Union preparing to attack the Germany?

#1403

Post by Omeganian » 26 Jul 2016, 18:31

BDV wrote:
Omeganian wrote:Offensive plans have been found. The actual distribution of the Soviet forces matches them as closely as one would expect a plan to match reality.
Such claims have been made repeatedly by Germany and its apologists, about multiple occasions (see Belgium WWI).

The weight of the proof falls on those that accuse Sovjet Union of such thoughts.
If actual carrying out of the plans isn't considered proof, then what possibly is? Some piece of paper?

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Was Soviet Union preparing to attack the Germany?

#1404

Post by michael mills » 27 Jul 2016, 03:54

The Timoshenko-Zhukov pre-emptive strike plan of May 1941 was a reaction to the observed German build-up on the Soviet western frontier, and the knowledge that Germany was preparing for an invasion. The basic idea of the pre-emptive strike plan was to catch the German forces in the process of deploying for an attack, when they would not be in a defensive formation and hence highly vulnerable to a first strike.

However, the strategy formulated in the Timoshenko-Zhukov pre-emptive strike plan was essentially the same as the Red Army plans prepared in 1940 for a mass offensive into German-occupied Poland, coupled with an offensive into Romania to capture the oilfields there. The 1940 plans were in no way a reaction to an immediate German threat to the Soviet Union, since in that year Germany was fully occupied in fighting France and Britain.

The existence of the 1940 offensive plans demonstrate that Stalin was expecting a war with Germany at some time in the near future, and had begun preparing for it even before Hitler had decided to attack the Soviet Union.

The historical reality is that the German army was able to do to the Red Army what Timoshenko and Zhukov were planning to do to the German Army, ie to catch the opponent in the process of deploying for an offensive and therefore not being in a defensive position. The initial German successes were due to the fact that the German Army was able to strike first, at a point when the Red Army was still at least two months away from completing the preparations for its own offensive as laid down in the Timoshenko-Zhukov plan.

Omeganian
Member
Posts: 234
Joined: 02 Jan 2012, 17:53

Re: Was Soviet Union preparing to attack the Germany?

#1405

Post by Omeganian » 27 Jul 2016, 06:33

The problem is with this "two months" figure. Where do you draw the border between "preparations not quite complete" and "cannot conduct operations"?

antfreire
Member
Posts: 193
Joined: 25 Apr 2010, 23:29

Re: Was Soviet Union preparing to attack the Germany?

#1406

Post by antfreire » 27 Jul 2016, 15:57

One thing is "Stalin planning an attack on Germany in 1941" and another is "Stalin was going to attack Germany" The Soviet Dictator knew that a war with Germany was probable, but Germany had issues in the West that (he thought) Hitler had to resolve first, so he had time to prepare while Germany would be weakening trying to finish the war in the West. That's why he did not believe anyone that informed him that Hitler would attack for he, being a cautious man, knew that attacking Russia while fighting England was stupid. I think that if the war with France would have stagnated as in 1914, Stalin would no have hesitated to attack Germany in 1941.

steverodgers801
Member
Posts: 1147
Joined: 13 Aug 2011, 19:02

Re: Was Soviet Union preparing to attack the Germany?

#1407

Post by steverodgers801 » 27 Jul 2016, 19:45

Michael, that is fine if the Soviets were ready to invade, which they weren't. The soviets were in the midst of a massive reorganization and were in no shape to defend, much less attack

Omeganian
Member
Posts: 234
Joined: 02 Jan 2012, 17:53

Re: Was Soviet Union preparing to attack the Germany?

#1408

Post by Omeganian » 27 Jul 2016, 19:53

steverodgers801 wrote:Michael, that is fine if the Soviets were ready to invade, which they weren't. The soviets were in the midst of a massive reorganization and were in no shape to defend, much less attack
Big deal. There are always reorganizations. Sometimes, they are even performed at wartime. The plans are clear; once mobilization is announced, the forces will be combat ready within days if not hours.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Was Soviet Union preparing to attack the Germany?

#1409

Post by michael mills » 28 Jul 2016, 07:01

The massive reorganisation had been underway since 1940, and was scheduled to be completed by early 1942. Its purpose was to prepare the Red Army for a successful offensive to the west.

As of 22 June 1941, the preparations were not complete, but the Red Army was already technologically superior to the German Army. If it had been allowed to continue its preparations until the scheduled completion date of early 1942, its superiority would have been overwhelming. It was the technological superiority of the Soviet armed forces already achieved as of the date of the German invasion that enabled them to survive that invasion, despite the enormous advantage gained by the German forces through their first strike.

It is obvious that in May 1941, Timoshenko and Zhukov believed that the Red Army could quickly be made ready to launch a pre-emptive trike against the German forces being built up on the frontier. That suggests that the completion date for the offensive preparations had been brought forward and the preparations accelerated, most probably as a reaction to the realisation that Germany was preparing to launch its own invasion in 1941. We know that Stalin had ordered the military industries to be on a full war-footing by the end of July of that year.

Interrogations of captured Red Army personnel indicate that rumours were rife in the Red Army that it would launch its offensive to the West in August-September 1941. That is consistent with Stalin's order for the military industries to be on a full war footing by the end of July, and supports the interpretation that the original target date for the completion of the Red Army's preparations had been brought forward to mid-1941.

However, one thing is clear; as of 22 June 1941, the level of forces prescribed in the Timoshenko-Zhukov plan for a pre-emptive strike against the German forces massed in Poland had not yet been achieved. For example, the Lwow salient was identified in the plan as the centre of gravity for the offensive to the west, and a huge force was to be massed in that area; however, the forces massing in the Lwow salient had not reached the prescribed level as of the date of the German invasion.

Omeganian
Member
Posts: 234
Joined: 02 Jan 2012, 17:53

Re: Was Soviet Union preparing to attack the Germany?

#1410

Post by Omeganian » 28 Jul 2016, 08:01

michael mills wrote:However, one thing is clear; as of 22 June 1941, the level of forces prescribed in the Timoshenko-Zhukov plan for a pre-emptive strike against the German forces massed in Poland had not yet been achieved. For example, the Lwow salient was identified in the plan as the centre of gravity for the offensive to the west, and a huge force was to be massed in that area; however, the forces massing in the Lwow salient had not reached the prescribed level as of the date of the German invasion.
The question is how much time would have been required. As Mark Solonin points out, on the German side, the tank divisions of Army Group South were unloaded from the trains June 14-20, and didn't actually deploy until hours before the invasion (or even after the start). Seems like situation a couple weeks before the scheduled date is a poor indicator.

Locked

Return to “WW2 in Eastern Europe”