The Year of Ten Victories by Russian historians

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
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Yuri
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#31

Post by Yuri » 09 Aug 2006, 16:03

Juha Tompuri wrote: While waiting more info about the draft documet, you can yourself check the Podolsk archives about info of the same subject. If you dont't know where to look there, I'm sure you can always contact knowledged countrymen of yours, like Professor Kilin.
Following your recommendation, I have looked of Podolsk's archival documents on Vyborg - Petrozavodsk operation (the fourth Stalin impact).
Here that there is available.
On February, 12th, 1944 Finland, seeing, that group of armies " North " departs under impacts of Red Army (the first Stalin impact) on the West, has requested conditions for an exit from a condition of war from the USSR and British Empire.
The USSR has answered, that for this purpose it is necessary:
- To pay 600 million US dollars;
- To remove the Finnish armies on a line of border of 1940;
- To intern German armies in territory of Finland;
- Immediately to return all Soviet prisoners of war, and as prisoners of war of the countries of an antihitlerite coalition.

Considering, that Finland was directly guilty of destruction more than 600 thousand citizens of the Leningrad which has died during blockade of city it is possible to tell, that the offered USSR conditions of an exit from war were very soft for Finns.
Probably, I.Stalin showed greater sympathy to Finns and did not wish to show to them more severe constraints.

However in the beginning of March 1944 the Red Army has stopped approach to group of armies «North» and front was stabilized to the river Narva.
Probably, having solved, that the Red Army has exhausted, Finns have interrupted negotiations and have declared refusal to accept the offered conditions of an exit from war.
On April, 16th Finland has informed on this to representatives of the USSR.

In reply to it, Stavka operation has developed, which purpose consisted in forcing Finland to an exit from war.
According to the plan of this operation of an army of the Leningrad front, operated Karelian isthmus, and the armies of the Karelian front operated in southern Kareliya (between lake Ladoga and lake Onega) should strike on the Finnish strengthenings and grasp the cities of Vyborg and Petrozavodsk.

The ultimate goal of operation consisted in that, to leave on a line: Tikshozero (150 km to the north from Kuolisma) - Sortavala - Imatra - Lappenranta - Kotka.

From this plan it is visible, that at Stavka never was such purpose - to occupy Finland.
Is not present by way of this operation of instructions about that the Red Army has made in Finland communistic revolution.

Who is not visible here and the one when and as should move the population of Finland to Siberia.
It is not visible here the plan of settling of territory of Finland Russian people.

However from this plan it is precisely visible the following.
Vyborg - Petrozavodsk operation (the fourth Stalin impact) it was provided:
a/ to clear territory of the USSR from of armies the opponent;
b/ an exit of armies of Leningrad front on a line of border of 1940.

Actual events developed as follows:
On June, 10th artillery corps have striked powerful blow on the strengthened points of the Finnish defense on Karelian isthmus.
Units of Soviet 21-st army have quickly broken through the Finnish defense and have started to develop approach in a direction of the city of Vyborg.

According to the plan, the immediate task of operation - capture of the city of Vyborg - should be executed during from June, 18 till June, 20th, 1940.
And this a task has been executed precisely in time - on June, 20th the city of Vyborg was to take. That is, on this task it was required only ten day.

Note:
For comparison:
- During Winter war 1939/40 for break of the same boundary of the Finnish defense and capture of the city of Vyborg of Red Army it was required three and a half of a month.
- Finnish - German armies for overcoming the same distance (in the opposite direction) it was required to summer of 1941 to two months.


After the first purpose of the fourth Stalin impact has been reached, at 02 o'clock 15 minutes on June, 21st, 1941 Stavka has directed of Commander armies the Leningrad front marshal Govorov instruction No 220119.

The document 1 - «Instruction Stavka No 220119 from 21/6/1944»
Instruction Stavka Supreme Main Command No 220119
The commander armies of the Leningrad front
About continuation of approach on Karelian isthmus.

On June, 21st, 1944
02 hour of 15 minutes

Stavka Supreme Main Command orders:

1. To armies of the Leningrad front, acting Karelian isthmus to continue approach with a task 26-28.06.1944 the main forces to take possession a boundary Imatra, Lappenranta, Virojoki. A part of forces to attack Keksgolm, Elisenvara with the purpose of clarification from the opponent of Karelian isthmus to northeast from the river and lake Vuoksi.

2. In the further the main forces to develop approach with a task to take possession boundary Kuovola, Kotka and will be fixed on east coast (bank)of the river Kjumin-Joki. To provide the main grouping from the north.

3. To install about 24.00 6/21/1944 a following differentiating line between Karelian and Leningrad fronts: up to Korovkino - former and further southern and western coast of Ladoga lake, Tervus, Elisenvara, Tajpionkoski, Lappenranta, Lahti (all points for the Leningrad front inclusive).

4. On the given orders to inform.

Stavka Supreme Main Command

I. STALIN
A. ANTONOV
CAMD.
f. 148a, i. 3763, f. 166, s. 376, 377. The original.
[RA. GPW. vol. 16 - 5 (4), pp. 97,98]
====================================

Apparently, instruction No 220119 from 21/6/1944 contains the requirement - to develop the plan of the further actions for armies of the Leningrad front with the purpose:
a/ clarifications of all territory of Karelian isthmus from the opponent;
b/ an exit of armies of the Leningrad front on a boundary: Imatra - Lappenranta - Virojoki;
c/ a ultimate goal of all operation: an exit of armies of the Leningrad front on a boundary: Kuovola - Kotka also will be fixed at east bank (coast) the rivers Kjumin-Joki.

On this document signatures of Supreme Commander in Chief I. Stalin and member Stavka - the deputy Chief of the General Staff of the general of army A. Antonov are put.

In reply to this instruction, at 19 o'clock 30 minutes on June, 21st, 1944 the staff of the Leningrad front has presented in Stavka the report No 8831. In this report the decision on development of approach on Karelian isthmus is stated.
That is here with what should end Vyborg - Petrozavodsk operation (the fourth Stalin impact) is stated.

Translation into English language of the text of the report No 8831 from 21/6/1944.

The document 2 - «The Report of Commander armies of Leningrad front with the decision on development of approach on Karelian isthmus No 8831 from 21/6/1944»
The report of commander armies of Leningrad front No 8831
To Supreme Commander in Chief of the plan for development of approach on Karelian isthmus.

On June, 21st, 1944
19 hour of 30 minutes

I represent the decision on development of approach on Karelian isthmus to execution of Your instruction No 220119 from 21.06.1944.

1. Tasks of operation.
Armies of the Karelian direction of the Leningrad front continue approach with a task 26-28.06.1944 main forces to take possession a boundary Imatra, Lappenranta, Surpjalja. Simultaneously clear of the opponent Karelian isthmus to northeast from the rivers and lakes Vuoksi approach of a part of forces on Hitola, Keksgolm.

2. A plan of operation.
To put the main impact on Lappenranta with the subsequent expansion of impact of two armies on the West with the purpose of an exit them on a boundary Lappenranta, Surpjalja and one army, will be forwarded through the river Vuoksi at the front Antrea - Enso, to come in the general direction on Hitola.

3. Planning of operation.

The first a stage (immediate task) - 22-24.06.1944.
Since boundary Kukauppi, station Kavantsari, JUustila, Tienhara to develop impact in a northwest direction, striking the main blow to Lappenranta and, being covered on the river Vuoksi, not later 6/24/1944 to leave on boundary Enso, lake Nuijama-jarvi, Lajnela, Nisalahti.

The second stage (the subsequent task of armies) - 24.-25.06.1944.
Developing impact to Lappenranta, Imatra with consecutive expansion of approach to the West with a task for not later 26.06.1944 to leave on a boundary Imatra, Lappenranta, Surpjalja, having grasped straight off the basic strong points of a defensive strip of the opponent of construction 1940/41; simultaneously to prepare for force break of this strip.
59-th army is entered since boundary Penttilja, Lajnela, having united 109-th rifle corps and 9-th rifle corps operating in a direction of Lappenranta.
21-st army from now on unites 108-th rifle corps and 110-th rifle corps, acting a seaside direction, and 30-th Guards rifle corps, transmitted of a front reserve.
Border between armies: Lajnela, Meta (all for 59-th army).
23-rd army forces the river Vuoksi and develops impact in the general direction on Hitolu.
115 rifle corps it is forwarded through the river Vuoksi in area in area Kiviniemi and in interaction with 23-rd army strikes in the general direction on Keksgolm.

4. Construction of operation.
The immediate task is solved by 23-rd and 21-st Armies in structure of: 23-rd Army two rifle corps; 21-st Army - three rifle corps.
The subsequent task is solved by 23-rd, 59-th and 21-st Armies in structure of: 23-rd Army - three rifle corps's; 59-th Army - two rifle corps; 21-st Army - three rifle corps.

For performance of the put tasks I ask:

1. To strengthen front:
Two rifle corps (as it is not enough available forces for performance of put tasks) ;
One engineering-sapper a brigade;
Two motorized pontoon-roadways battalions with parks N2L;
One battalion of dogs-mine detectors [battalion dogs for search of mines]
;
Two parks NLP (for two engineering brigades);
Two motor-battalions of special destination (amphibian).

2. To release to front:
Tanks T-34 - 30 pieces;
Self-propelled artillery SU-76 - 30 pieces (for restoration of tank units);
Mines for GMU M-31 - 7000, M-13 - 10 000;
100 motor vehicles "studebekker" (for pontoon and engineering units)

Commander armies of the Leningrad front
the Marshal of Soviet Union GOVOROV

Member of the Military council of the Leningrad front
general-colonel ZHDANOV

The chief of a staff of the Leningrad front
general-colonel POPOV
CAMD.
f. 217, i. 1227, f. 95, s. 161-163. The original.
[RA. GPW. vol. 16 - 5 (4), pp. 286,287]
===================================================

This document have signed: Commander armies of the Leningrad front, the chief of a staff and a member of the Military council.
Apparently from the presented decision on development of approach, command of armies of the Leningrad front considers, that it is not enough forces available at its order for the decision of the tasks put in instruction No 220119.

It has been caused by that Finns have thrown to Karelian isthmus in addition four infantry divisions (3-rd, 6-th, 11-th and 17-th) and 20-th brigade. Then, 10-th infantry division crushed in the previous fights has been completely restored due to reserves. Besides here have arrived still and German armies:
122-nd Infantry Division, 200-th Infantry Regiment, 303-rd brigade of assault instruments. In this connection command of the Leningrad front asks Stavka to allocate in addition two rifle corps, and as combat material and an ammunition.

However in reply to this request for allocation of additional forces Stavka at 02 o'clock 00 minutes on June, 22nd, 1944 direct following instruction No 220121.
In instruction No 220121 from 22/6/1944 refusal to allocate additional forces for armies of the Leningrad front contains.

Here translation on English the text of this instruction.

The document 3 - «Instruction Stavka No 220121 from 22/6/1944»
Instruction Stavka Supreme Main Command No 220121
the commander armies of the Leningrad front
about the statement of the plan of approach on Karelian isthmus.

On June, 22nd, 1944
02 hours of 00 minutes

Stavka Supreme Main Command approves your decision presented by the code of 21.06.1944 of year for No 8831, and specifies:

1. On strengthening of front in addition by two rifle corps to not hope.
The front has enough forces and means for performance of the put task.

2. The others you means will be, whenever possible, are given.

Stavka Supreme Main Command

I. STALIN
A. ANTONOV
CAMD
f. 148à, i. 3763, f. 166, s. 378. The original.
[RA. GPW. vol. 16 - 5 (4), p. 98]
===================================================

As a whole (in aggregate) these documents give full representation about plans by which was guided Stavka at scheduling Vyborg - Petrozavodsk operations (the fourth Stalin impact).
All these documents are signed by corresponding officials. Authenticity of these documents does not raise the doubts.
Besides authenticity of these documents proves to be true also process of events on Karelian isthmus in June - August, 1944.
Hence, those who executed plans Vyborg - Petrozavodsk operations (the fourth Stalin impact) were guided by these documents.

If Vyborg - Petrozavodsk operation (the fourth Stalin impact) had such greater purpose - as occupation of Finland and inclusion of this state in structure of the USSR it is possible to not doubt that Stalin would allocate for such purpose and two rifle corps (about which ask marshal Govorov), and to them two more armies. It is possible to not doubt, that in this case Stalin would allocate still and two artillery corps of break.
As at this time Stavka had in a reserve such forces.
If Stalin has not made this it means, that he did not have such intentions

On the other hand, the document presented by you «The Document on unconditional surrender of Finland » has doubtful value.
His origin is not clear, who is not clear his author, not clear to whom he intended.
The contents of the text of your document contradicts a course of events in June - August, 1944.

As my text translation of documents on English language is not correct I give the Russian text of these three documents:

The document 1 - «Instruction Stavka No 220119 from 21/6/1944»
Äèðåêòèâà Ñòàâêè ÂÃÊ N 220119
êîìàíäóþùåìó âîéñêàìè Ëåíèíãðàäñêîãî ôðîíòà
î ïðîäîëæåíèå íàñòóïëåíèÿ íà Êàðåëüñêîì ïåðåøåéêå.

21 èþíÿ 1944 ãîäà 02 ÷àñ. 15 ìèí.

Ñòàâêà Âåðõîâíîãî Ãëàâíîêîìàíäîâàíèÿ ïðèêàçûâàåò:

1. Âîéñêàì Ëåíèíãðàäñêîãî ôðîíòà, äåéñòâóþùèì íà Êàðåëüñêîì ïåðåøåéêå, ïðîäîëæèòü íàñòóïëåíèå ñ çàäà÷åé 26-28.06 ãëàâíûìè ñèëàìè îâëàäåòü ðóáåæîì Èìàòðà, Ëàïïåíðàíòà, Âèðîéîêè. ×àñòüþ ñèë íàñòóïàòü íà Êåêñãîëüì, Ýëèñåíâàðà ñ öåëüþ î÷èùåíèÿ îò ïðîòèâíèêà Êàðåëüñêîãî ïåðåøåéêà ñåâåðî-âîñòî÷íåå ðåêè è îçåðà Âóîêñè.

2.  äàëüíåéøåì ãëàâíûìè ñèëàìè ðàçâèâàòü íàñòóïëåíèå ñ çàäà÷åé îâëàäåòü ðóáåæîì Êóîâîëà, Êîòêà è çàêðåïèòñÿ íà âîñòî÷íîì áåðåãó ð. Êþìèí-Éîêè. Îáåñïå÷èâàòü ñâîþ ãëàâíóþ ãðóïïèðîâêó ñ ñåâåðà.

3. Óñòàíîâèòü ñ 24.00 21.06.1944 ãîäà ñëåäóþùóþ ðàçãðàíè÷èòåëüíóþ ëèíèþ ìåæäó Êàðåëüñêèì è Ëåíèíãðàäñêèì ôðîíòàìè: äî Êîðîâêèíî – ïðåæíÿÿ è äàëåå þæíûé è çàïàäíûé áåðåã Ëàäîæñêîãî îçåðà, Òåðâóñ, Ýëèñåíâàðà, Òàéïèîíêîñêè, Ëàïïåíðàíòà, Ëàõòè (âñå ïóíêòû äëÿ Ëåíèíãðàäñêîãî ôðîíòà âêëþ÷èòåëüíî).

4. Îá îòäàííûõ ðàñïîðÿæåíèÿõ äîíåñòè.

Ñòàâêà Âåðõîâíîãî Ãëàâíîêîìàíäîâàíèÿ

È. ÑÒÀËÈÍ
À. ÀÍÒÎÍÎÂ

ÖÀÌÎ.
Ô. 148à, îï. 3763, ä. 166, ë. 376, 377. Ïîäëèííèê.
[ÐÀ. ÂÎÂ. òîì 16 – 5(4), Ñ. 97,98]
The document 2 - «The Report of Commander armies of Leningrad front with the decision on development of approach on Karelian isthmus No 8831 from 21/6/1944»
Äîêëàä êîìàíäóþùåãî âîéñêàìè Ëåíèíãðàäñêîãî ôðîíòà N 8831
Âåðõîâíîìó Ãëàâíîêîìàíäóþùåìó ïëàíà ðàçâèòèÿ íàñòóïëåíèÿ íà Êàðåëüñêîì ïåðåøåéêå.

21 èþíÿ 1944 ãîäà 19 ÷àñ. 30 ìèí.

Ïðåäñòàâëÿþ ðåøåíèå íà ðàçâèòèå íàñòóïëåíèÿ íà Êàðåëüñêîì ïåðåøåéêå âî èñïîëíåíèå Âàøåé äèðåêòèâû N 220119 îò 21.06.1944 ãîäà.

1.Çàäà÷è îïåðàöèè.
Âîéñêà êàðåëüñêîãî íàïðàâëåíèÿ Ëåíèíãðàäñêîãî ôðîíòà ïðîäîëæàþò íàñòóïëåíèå ñ çàäà÷åé 26-28.06.1944 ãîäà ãëàâíûìè ñèëàìè îâëàäåòü ðóáåæîì Èìàòðà, Ëàïïåíðàíòà, Ñóðïÿëÿ. Îäíîâðåìåííî î÷èùàþò îò ïðîòèâíèêà Êàðåëüñêèé ïåðåøååê ñåâåðî-âîñòî÷íåå ðåêè è îçåðà Âóîêñè íàñòóïëåíèåì ÷àñòè ñèë íà Õèòîëà, Êåêñãîëüì.

2. Çàìûñåë îïåðàöèè.
Ãëàâíûé óäàð íàíåñòè íà Ëàïïåíðàíòó ñ ïîñëåäóþùèì ðàçâåðòûâàíèåì óäàðà äâóõ àðìèé íà çàïàä ñ öåëüþ âûõîäà èìè íà ðóáåæ Ëàïïåíðàíòà, Ñóðïÿëÿ è îäíîé àðìèåé, ôîðñèðîâàâ ð. Âóîêñè íà ôðîíòå Àíòðåà, Ýíñî, íàñòóïàòü â îáùåì íàïðàâëåíèè íà Õèòîëó.

3. Ïëàíèðîâàíèå îïåðàöèè.

Ïåðâûé ýòàïà (áëèæàéøàÿ çàäà÷à) – 22-24.06.1944 ãîäà.
Ñ ðóáåæà Êóêàóïïè, ñòàíöèÿ Êàâàíòñàðè, Þóñòèëà, Òèåíõàðà ðàçâèâàòü óäàð â ñåâåðî-çàïàäíîì íàïðàâëåíèè, íàíîñÿ ãëàâíûé óäàð íà Ëàïïåíðàíòó è, ïðèêðûâàÿñü ïî ð. Âóîêñè, íå ïîçäíåå 24.06.1944 ãîäà âûéòè íà ðóáåæ Ýíñî, îç. Íóèÿìà-ÿðâè, Ëàéíýëà, Íèñàëàõòè.

Âòîðîé ýòàï (ïîñëåäóþùàÿ çàäà÷à àðìèé) – 24.-25.06.1044 ãîäà.
Ðàçâèâàÿ óäàð íà Ëàïïåíðàíòó, Èìàòðó ñ ïîñëåäîâàòåëüíûì ðàçâåðòûâàíèåì íàñòóïëåíèÿ íà çàïàä ñ çàäà÷åé íà ïîçäíåå 26.06. âûéòè íà ðóáåæ Èìàòðà, Ëàïïåíðàíòà, Ñóðïÿëÿ, çàõâàòèâ ñ õîäó îñíîâíûå îïîðíûå ïóíêòû îáîðîíèòåëüíîé ïîëîñû ïðîòèâíèêà ñòðîèòåëüñòâà 1940/41 ãîäà; îäíîâðåìåííî ãîòîâèòü ñèëîâîé ïðîðûâ ýòîé ïîëîñû.
59-ÿ àðìèÿ ââîäèòñÿ ñ ðóáåæà Ïåíòòèëÿ, Ëàéíýëà, îáúåäèíèâ 109-é è 9-é êîðïóñà, äåéñòâóþùèå â íàïðàâëåíèè Ëàïïåíðàíòû.
21-ÿ àðìèÿ ñ ýòîãî âðåìåíè îáúåäèíÿåò 108 è 110 ñê, äåéñòâóþùèå íà ïðèìîðñêîì íàïðàâëåíèè, è 30 ãâ. ñê, ïåðåäàâàåìûé èç ôðîíòîâîãî ðåçåðâà.
Ãðàíèöà ìåæäó àðìèÿìè: Ëàéíýëà, Ìåòå (âñ¸ äëÿ 59-é àðìèè).
23-ÿ àðìèÿ ôîðñèðóåò ð. Âóîêñè è ðàçâèâàåò óäàð â îáùåì íàïðàâëåíèè íà Õèòîëó.
115 ñê ôîðñèðóåò ð. Âóîêñè â ðàéîíå â ðàéîíå Êèâèíèåìè è âî âçàèìîäåéñòâèè ñ 23 À íàíîñèò óäàð â îáùåì íàïðàâëåíèè íà Êåêñãîëüì.

4. Ïîñòðîåíèå îïåðàöèè.
Áëèæàéøóþ çàäà÷ó ðåøàþò 23-ÿ è 21-ÿ àðìèè â ñîñòàâå: 23-ÿ àðìèÿ äâà ñê; 21-ÿ àðìèÿ – òðè ñê.
Ïîñëåäóþùóþ çàäà÷ó ðåøàþò 23, 59 è 21 À â ñîñòàâå 23-ÿ àðèÿ – òðè ñê; 59-ÿ àðìèÿ – äâà ñê; 21-ÿ àðìèÿ – òðè ñê.

Äëÿ âûïîëíåíèÿ ïîñòàâëåííûõ çàäà÷ ïðîøó:

1.Óñèëèòü ôðîíò:
à) äâóìÿ ñòðåëêîâûìè êîðïóñàìè (òàê êàê èìåþùèõñÿ ñèë äëÿ âûïîëíåíèÿ ïîñòàâëåííûõ çàäà÷ íåäîñòàòî÷íî);
á) îäíîé èíæåíåðíî-ñàïåðíîé áðèãàäîé;
â) äâóìÿ ìîòîðèçîâàííûìè ïîíòîííî-ìîñòîâûìè áàòàëüîíàìè ñ ïàðêàìè Í2Ë;
ã) îäíèì áàòàëüîíîì ñîáàê-ìèíîèñêàòåëåé;
ä) äâóìÿ ïàðêàìè ÍËÏ (äëÿ äâóõ èíæåíåðíûõ áðèãàä);
å) äâóìÿ ìîòîáàòàëüîíàìè îñîáîãî íàçíà÷åíèÿ (àìôèáèÿ).

2. Îòïóñòèòü ôðîíòó:
à) òàíêîâ Ò-34 – 30 øò.;
á) ñàìîõîäíîé àðòèëëåðèè ÑÓ-76 – 30 øò. (äëÿ âîññòàíîâëåíèÿ òàíêîâûõ ÷àñòåé);
â) ìèí äëÿ ÃÌ× Ì-31 – 7000, Ì-31 – 10 000;
ã) 100 àâòîìàøèí «ñòóäåáåêåð» (äëÿ ïîíòîííûõ è èíæåíåðíûõ ÷àñòåé)

Êîìàíäóþùèé âîéñêàìè Ëåíèíãðàäñêîãî ôðîíòà
Ìàðøàë Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà ÃÎÂÎÐÎÂ

×ëåí Âîåííîãî ñîâåòà Ëåíèíãðàäñêîãî ôðîíòà
ãåíåðàë-ïîëêîâíèê ÆÄÀÍÎÂ

Íà÷àëüíèê øòàáà Ëåíèíãðàäñêîãî ôðîíòà
Ãåíåðàë-ïîëêîâíèê ÏÎÏÎÂ
ÖÀÌÎ
ô. 217, îïèñü 1227, ä. 95, ë. 161-163. Ïîäëèííèê
[ÐÀ. ÂÎÂ. òîì. 16 - 5 (4), Ñ. 286,287]
====================================================

The document 3 - «Instruction Stavka No 220121 from 22/6/1944»
Äèðåêòèâà Ñòàâêè ÂÃÊ N 220121
êîìàíäóþùåìó âîéñêàìè Ëåíèíãðàäñêîãî ôðîíòà
îá óòâåðæäåíèè ïëàíà íàñòóïëåíèÿ íà Êàðåëüñêîì ïåðåøåéêå.

22 èþíÿ 1944 ãîäà 02 ÷àñ. 00 ìèí.

Ñòàâêà Âåðõîâíîãî Ãëàâíîêîìàíäîâàíèÿ óòâåðæäàåò âàøå ðåøåíèå, ïðåäñòàâëåííîå øèôðîì 21.06.1944 ãîäà çà N 8831, è óêàçûâàåò:

1. Íà óñèëåíèå ôðîíòà äîïîëíèòåëüíî äâóìÿ ñòðåëêîâûìè êîðïóñàìè íå ðàññ÷èòûâàòü.
Ôðîíò èìååò äîñòàòî÷íî ñèë è ñðåäñòâ äëÿ âûïîëíåíèÿ ïîñòàâëåííîé çàäà÷è.

2. Îñòàëüíûå ïðîñèìûå âàìè ñðåäñòâà áóäóò, ïî âîçìîæíîñòè, äàíû.

Ñòàâêà Âåðõîâíîãî Ãëàâíîêîìàíäîâàíèÿ

È. ÑÒÀËÈÍ
À. ÀÍÒÎÍÎÂ
ÖÀÌÎ
ôîíä 148à, îïèñü 3763, äåëî 166, ëèñò 378. Ïîäëèííèê.
[ÐÀ. ÂÎÂ. òîì 16 – 5(4), Ñ. 98]

/
udachi / Good Luck

Yuri

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Harri
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#32

Post by Harri » 10 Aug 2006, 08:33

Yuri wrote:Considering, that Finland was directly guilty of destruction more than 600 thousand citizens of the Leningrad which has died during blockade of city it is possible to tell, that the offered USSR conditions of an exit from war were very soft for Finns.
Probably, I.Stalin showed greater sympathy to Finns and did not wish to show to them more severe constraints.
Full bull. Finland didn't partisipate in any actions agains Leningrad during the war. That has been discussed numerous times also in this forum.

I think there is neither proves on the last "claim"?
Yuri wrote:The ultimate goal of operation consisted in that, to leave on a line: Tikshozero (150 km to the north from Kuolisma) - Sortavala - Imatra - Lappenranta - Kotka.
That was the first phase of the attack i.e. the line where the attack at minimum should have reached. But it didn't, so it was a failure.
Yuri wrote:From this plan it is visible, that at Stavka never was such purpose - to occupy Finland.
Is not present by way of this operation of instructions about that the Red Army has made in Finland communistic revolution.
That is not true if we look the ordered goals of the Soviet troops (listed below by Yuri).

From the Finnish point of view it is totally insignificant if the "revolution" in Finland was made by Red Army or someone else. Probably it was counted that Finnish Army will collapse and Finnish Reds can take power easily in a way that happened in the Baltic States?
Yuri wrote:Who is not visible here and the one when and as should move the population of Finland to Siberia.
It is not visible here the plan of settling of territory of Finland Russian people.
That happened everywhere, especially in the areas which were attached to USSR. Why Finland would have been an exception?

There was also an earlier Soviet plan to form a "Greater Finland" (together with Soviet East Karelia) which would have been attached to USSR as one of its "states".
Yuri wrote:However from this plan it is precisely visible the following.
Vyborg - Petrozavodsk operation (the fourth Stalin impact) it was provided:
a/ to clear territory of the USSR from of armies the opponent;
b/ an exit of armies of Leningrad front on a line of border of 1940.
That goal was never reached.
Yuri wrote:According to the plan, the immediate task of operation - capture of the city of Vyborg - should be executed during from June, 18 till June, 20th, 1940.
And this a task has been executed precisely in time - on June, 20th the city of Vyborg was to take. That is, on this task it was required only ten day.
The distance from Valkeasaari to Viborg is only about 80 km. Basically it was not very exceptional achievement taking into consideration that unarmoured Finnish infantry troops did it faster in 1941 without the massive aerial and artillery support.
Yuri wrote:Note:
For comparison:
- During Winter war 1939/40 for break of the same boundary of the Finnish defense and capture of the city of Vyborg of Red Army it was required three and a half of a month.
- Finnish - German armies for overcoming the same distance (in the opposite direction) it was required to summer of 1941 to two months.
During the Winter War Red Army could not capture Viborg.

Neither the second statement is true. There were no German troops (or aerial support, I'm not quite sure about the aerial reconnaissance?) on Karelian Isthmus in the summer 1941. Finnish attack on that area started on 31.7.1941 (in several phases) and was stopped during the early days of September. River Rajajoki on the old border was reached on 2.9.1941.

So, the Finnish operation on Karelian Isthmus did require about one month although it was started from the new border on 1940 which is about 40 km away from Viborg. Viborg was captured by the Finns on 28.8.1941 because Finns wanted to avoid battles in the city which would have cause more damages. Viborg was thus at first encircled and three Soviet divisions were destroyed south from Viborg.

I'd also emphasize that in 1941 Finns didn't have that overwhelming numbers of divisions, aircraft and armoured troops USSR had in 1944 for their attack.
Yuri wrote:Stavka Supreme Main Command orders:
1. To armies of the Leningrad front, acting Karelian isthmus to continue approach with a task 26-28.06.1944 the main forces to take possession a boundary Imatra, Lappenranta, Virojoki. A part of forces to attack Keksgolm, Elisenvara with the purpose of clarification from the opponent of Karelian isthmus to northeast from the river and lake Vuoksi.
2. In the further the main forces to develop approach with a task to take possession boundary Kuovola, Kotka and will be fixed on east coast (bank)of the river Kjumin-Joki. To provide the main grouping from the north.
3. To install about 24.00 6/21/1944 a following differentiating line between Karelian and Leningrad fronts: up to Korovkino - former and further southern and western coast of Ladoga lake, Tervus, Elisenvara, Tajpionkoski, Lappenranta, Lahti (all points for the Leningrad front inclusive).
4. On the given orders to inform.
So, the attack was not to be stopped because the ordered goals were tens of kilometres away from the line were Soviet troops were actually repelled.

The city of Lahti is at least about 250 km away from Viborg. Could it be "Virolahti"?
Yuri wrote:Apparently, instruction No 220119 from 21/6/1944 contains the requirement - to develop the plan of the further actions for armies of the Leningrad front with the purpose:
a/ clarifications of all territory of Karelian isthmus from the opponent;
b/ an exit of armies of the Leningrad front on a boundary: Imatra - Lappenranta - Virojoki;
c/ a ultimate goal of all operation: an exit of armies of the Leningrad front on a boundary: Kuovola - Kotka also will be fixed at east bank (coast) the rivers Kjumin-Joki.
It seems quite clear that Finland was to be occupied just like Juha (T.) told.

Kouvola - Kotka is the so called Kymijoki river line and one of the old borders during the era of Czar Peter the Great in the late 18th Century!!


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Yuri
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#33

Post by Yuri » 10 Aug 2006, 10:09

Harri wrote:
Yuri wrote:Considering, that Finland was directly guilty of destruction more than 600 thousand citizens of the Leningrad which has died during blockade of city it is possible to tell, that the offered USSR conditions of an exit from war were very soft for Finns.
Probably, I.Stalin showed greater sympathy to Finns and did not wish to show to them more severe constraints.
Full bull. Finland didn't partisipate in any actions agains Leningrad during the war. That has been discussed numerous times also in this forum.

I think there is neither proves on the last "claim"?
To discuss all is possible and much it, however, does not remove from Finns of the responsibility for martyr death for famine of 600 thousand peace inhabitants during blockade of city of Leningrad.
The impression is made, that for verbose reasonings on Stalin's intention to take out the population of Finland to Siberia, to hide the desire of Finns to remove from itself guilt for this unprecedented crime in the sizes.
Harri wrote:
Yuri wrote:The ultimate goal of operation consisted in that, to leave on a line: Tikshozero (150 km to the north from Kuolisma) - Sortavala - Imatra - Lappenranta - Kotka.
That was the first phase of the attack i.e. the line where the attack at minimum should have reached. But it didn't, so it was a failure.
The purpose of Vyborg - Petrozavodsk operation - compulsion of Finland to an exit from war and internment of German armies in her territory.
Stavka has assumed, that for achievement of such large purpose armies will need to leave on this line.
However it has appeared, that for achievement of this purpose it is necessary much less, than it was supposed in the beginning.
Enough was to leave on a line of Vyborg and Finland again has addressed to searches of the world. Seeing it is the Stavka on July, 12th 1944 has transferred marshal Govorov the instruction on the discontinuance of approach.
What for to spend superfluous forces and means when the purpose is already reached?
As is known, Stalin was very rational and economical person.

As it is not sad about it to speak, but on that you here write, it is visible, earlier these three basic documents to you were not known.
This fact in itself eloquently speaks about a level of knowledge of the population of Finland.

Instead of discussion of details of the true plan Vyborg - Petrozavodsk operations you argue on the various hypothetical variants far from an essence of this operation.
There is no doubt that if Finnish to the politician have not made of the wise decision on an exit from war and internment of German armies Finland would be occupied.
Clearly as, that in this a case representatives of Finland would sign: "Act of unconditional surrender of the Finnish armed forces".
So the such type document correctly refers to.

udachi / Good Luck
Yuri

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Harri
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#34

Post by Harri » 10 Aug 2006, 11:11

Yuri wrote:
Harri wrote:
Yuri wrote:Considering, that Finland was directly guilty of destruction more than 600 thousand citizens of the Leningrad which has died during blockade of city it is possible to tell, that the offered USSR conditions of an exit from war were very soft for Finns.
Full bull. Finland didn't partisipate in any actions agains Leningrad during the war. That has been discussed numerous times also in this forum.
To discuss all is possible and much it, however, does not remove from Finns of the responsibility for martyr death for famine of 600 thousand peace inhabitants during blockade of city of Leningrad.
There would be the same situation even if Finland would have stayed behind the old border of 1920 and stayed neutral like it had wanted in the 1930's. The own actions of USSR were the main reason why Finland had to join war. Finland is not responsibility on the results of the war USSR had self caused.
Yuri wrote:The impression is made, that for verbose reasonings on Stalin's intention to take out the population of Finland to Siberia, to hide the desire of Finns to remove from itself guilt for this unprecedented crime in the sizes.
I'd bet no-one in Finland would have voluntarily go anywhere, especially not to Siberia. NKVD would have to shoot all at once more likely. And in that case there would have been at least an equal number of casualties on the other side...
Yuri wrote:
Harri wrote:
Yuri wrote:The ultimate goal of operation consisted in that, to leave on a line: Tikshozero (150 km to the north from Kuolisma) - Sortavala - Imatra - Lappenranta - Kotka.
That was the first phase of the attack i.e. the line where the attack at minimum should have reached. But it didn't, so it was a failure.
The purpose of Vyborg - Petrozavodsk operation - compulsion of Finland to an exit from war and internment of German armies in her territory.
It is interesting that it was so important to get Finland out of war in the summer 1944 although earlier Stalin had said to Finns that USSR will not allow Finland to stay neutral (and thus stay out of the whole war) like Finns all the time had wanted.
Yuri wrote:Stavka has assumed, that for achievement of such large purpose armies will need to leave on this line.
However it has appeared, that for achievement of this purpose it is necessary much less, than it was supposed in the beginning.
Enough was to leave on a line of Vyborg and Finland again has addressed to searches of the world. Seeing it is the Stavka on July, 12th 1944 has transferred marshal Govorov the instruction on the discontinuance of approach.
At that stage Soviet attacks had already been repelled everywhere and to continue the attack lots of new troops, replacements and reinforcements would have been needed. The attack had failed and troops were stopped and partly moved away. Finnish intelligence got that information in real time from many sources which further boosted Finnish defences.
Yuri wrote:What for to spend superfluous forces and means when the purpose is already reached?
As is known, Stalin was very rational and economical person.
I asked that same earlier. Even without this attack the end result would have been the same. THE WHOLE ATTACK WAS TOTALLY UNNECESSARY FOR USSR (that is why Finns didn't expect it at all). So, I really can't understand how "rational and economical person" Stalin really was?
Yuri wrote:As it is not sad about it to speak, but on that you here write, it is visible, earlier these three basic documents to you were not known.
This fact in itself eloquently speaks about a level of knowledge of the population of Finland.
I think you have not understood everything quite correctly?
Yuri wrote:Instead of discussion of details of the true plan Vyborg - Petrozavodsk operations you argue on the various hypothetical variants far from an essence of this operation.
There is no doubt that if Finnish to the politician have not made of the wise decision on an exit from war and internment of German armies Finland would be occupied.
Clearly as, that in this a case representatives of Finland would sign: "Act of unconditional surrender of the Finnish armed forces".
So the such type document correctly refers to.
You seem to "forget" what me and Juha (T.) have wrote earlier. The evidences show even by yourself are very clear. As a conclusion we can write down as follows:
1.) USSR started the operation against Finland in June 1944 to get Finland out of the war and to get power one way or another in Finland. From the Finnish point of view that means the same as the occupation and erecting of a puppet regime (= the fate of the Baltic States). There was although a Soviet plan to occupy Finland.
2.) The Soviet attack ended before it reached its minimum ordered goals. The reason was that Soviets were repelled and the attack failed both politically (to get Finland out of war, puppet regime) and militarily (destroying of Finnish Army, goal on the border of 1940).
3.) Political and military changes elsewhere in Europe were more important in the Finnish case than this Soviet attack and they would have led to the same goal without any military operation.
4.) Finnish Army didn't capitulate. Finland accepted the terms of truce nearly two months later the Soviet attack had ended.

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#35

Post by Juha Tompuri » 10 Aug 2006, 23:10

Thank you Yuri very much for your 090806 post, and specially for the documents.

...and now some critique :)
Yuri wrote: Following your recommendation, I have looked of Podolsk's archival documents on Vyborg - Petrozavodsk operation (the fourth Stalin impact).
Here that there is available.
Yuri wrote: As a whole (in aggregate) these documents give full representation about plans by which was guided Stavka at scheduling Vyborg - Petrozavodsk operations (the fourth Stalin impact).
All these documents are signed by corresponding officials. Authenticity of these documents does not raise the doubts.
Besides authenticity of these documents proves to be true also process of events on Karelian isthmus in June - August, 1944.


Hence, those who executed plans Vyborg - Petrozavodsk operations (the fourth Stalin impact) were guided by these documents.


[If Vyborg - Petrozavodsk operation (the fourth Stalin impact) had such greater purpose - as occupation of Finland and inclusion of this state in structure of the USSR it is possible to not doubt that Stalin would allocate for such purpose and two rifle corps (about which ask marshal Govorov), and to them two more armies. It is possible to not doubt, that in this case Stalin would allocate still and two artillery corps of break.
As at this time Stavka had in a reserve such forces.
If Stalin has not made this it means, that he did not have such intentions
Yuri wrote: As a whole (in aggregate) these documents give full representation about plans by which was guided Stavka at scheduling Vyborg - Petrozavodsk operations (the fourth Stalin impact).
All these documents are signed by corresponding officials. Authenticity of these documents does not raise the doubts.
Besides authenticity of these documents proves to be true also process of events on Karelian isthmus in June - August, 1944.
Hence, those who executed plans Vyborg - Petrozavodsk operations (the fourth Stalin impact) were guided by these documents.

If Vyborg - Petrozavodsk operation (the fourth Stalin impact) had such greater purpose - as occupation of Finland and inclusion of this state in structure of the USSR it is possible to not doubt that Stalin would allocate for such purpose and two rifle corps (about which ask marshal Govorov), and to them two more armies. It is possible to not doubt, that in this case Stalin would allocate still and two artillery corps of break.
As at this time Stavka had in a reserve such forces.
If Stalin has not made this it means, that he did not have such intentions
I think, with all friendship, you should dig deeper there, like professor Kilin, who has based his statements here http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... ht=#936550 on the Polodsk archive.
(more interesting and revealing than the operation era orders would be the pre-operation plans and orders, say from April - May 1944 )


Yuri wrote: On February, 12th, 1944 Finland, seeing, that group of armies " North " departs under impacts of Red Army (the first Stalin impact) on the West, has requested conditions for an exit from a condition of war from the USSR and British Empire.
The USSR has answered, that for this purpose it is necessary:
- To pay 600 million US dollars;
- To remove the Finnish armies on a line of border of 1940;
- To intern German armies in territory of Finland;
- Immediately to return all Soviet prisoners of war, and as prisoners of war of the countries of an antihitlerite coalition.
600 million $ was too much for our economy and internment of Germans at that moment was too much for us too.
Yuri wrote: Considering, that Finland was directly guilty of destruction more than 600 thousand citizens of the Leningrad which has died during blockade of city it is possible to tell, that the offered USSR conditions of an exit from war were very soft for Finns.
Direct guilty 8O , how about Soviets who didn't evacuate the civilians from the Leningrad ( actually southern part of Carelian Isthmus + Kronstadt + Oranienbaum ) ?
Yuri wrote: Probably, I.Stalin showed greater sympathy to Finns and did not wish to show to them more severe constraints.
A joke ? :D
Yuri wrote: However in the beginning of March 1944 the Red Army has stopped approach to group of armies «North» and front was stabilized to the river Narva.
Has or were stopped?

Yuri wrote: The ultimate goal of operation consisted in that, to leave on a line: Tikshozero (150 km to the north from Kuolisma) - Sortavala - Imatra - Lappenranta - Kotka.

From this plan it is visible, that at Stavka never was such purpose - to occupy Finland.
As I earlier posted Podolsk archives (professor Kilin) here disagree with you.
Yuri wrote: Is not present by way of this operation of instructions about that the Red Army has made in Finland communistic revolution.
Well...according to the Molotov-Ribbentop pact Finland was a Baltic state, and acording to the fates of the "other" Baltic states....
Yuri wrote: Who is not visible here and the one when and as should move the population of Finland to Siberia.
It is not visible here the plan of settling of territory of Finland Russian people.
...as I earlier posted about the fates of the Baltic states...quite many of them ended to Siberia, and quite many "foreigners" moved in place of them.


Yuri wrote: According to the plan, the immediate task of operation - capture of the city of Vyborg - should be executed during from June, 18 till June, 20th, 1940.
And this a task has been executed precisely in time - on June, 20th the city of Vyborg was to take. That is, on this task it was required only ten day.

Note:
For comparison:
- During Winter war 1939/40 for break of the same boundary of the Finnish defense and capture of the city of Vyborg of Red Army it was required three and a half of a month.
- Finnish - German armies for overcoming the same distance (in the opposite direction) it was required to summer of 1941 to two months.
Hmmm....
1939-40 Soviets 105 days from 1939 borders and not capturing Vyborg
1944 Soviets 10 days from 1939 borders to capturing Vyborg.
1941 Finns 2 days from capturing Vyborg to 1939 border
Yuri wrote:On the other hand, the document presented by you «The Document on unconditional surrender of Finland » has doubtful value.
His origin is not clear, who is not clear his author, not clear to whom he intended.
According to the professor Turtolas book Risto Ryti at Finnish-Soviet history seminary 1994, the Soviet historians dated that secret draft document ( sekretno projekt) back to 1943 (peace talks).
The exact date of when it was made and the author are not known.
At the covering letter there is a date 28th June 1944.
Kimmo Rentola writes at Historiallinen Aikakauskirja 2001/1 (Historical Journal) that the document possibly dates back to 13th October 1943
That date is mentioned as the date of the document where the newer Soviet, 21th July dated draft document, was based. (Thanks Janne for the hint :) )

Yuri wrote:The contents of the text of your document contradicts a course of events in June - August, 1944.
Plans and wishes not always materialize.

Regards, Juha

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F/PAUL
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#36

Post by F/PAUL » 18 Aug 2006, 15:11

Just as an aside. While the russians achieved their ten victories, I'm sure they were expensive victories.

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#37

Post by ATH » 18 Aug 2006, 20:21

but those were not "pyrrhic" victories that meant that it was even more exepensive for the opposite side...

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#38

Post by PJM » 18 Aug 2006, 23:07

F/PAUL wrote:Just as an aside. While the russians achieved their ten victories, I'm sure they were expensive victories.
ATH wrote:but those were not "pyrrhic" victories that meant that it was even more exepensive for the opposite side...
I agree. The Russians could afford the losses clearly better than the Germans did at that time.

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#39

Post by Yuri » 19 Aug 2006, 16:26

F/PAUL wrote:Just as an aside. While the russians achieved their ten victories, I'm sure they were expensive victories.
PJM wrote: I agree. The Russians could afford the losses clearly better than the Germans did at that time.
Emotions not supported with arguments.
Whence to you the true price of these victories is known?
Had an opportunity to receive these victories over the smaller price?

P. S.
Only Russian can know what present price to these victories, in fact, these are Russian victories.
Not knowing as, there, at You in the West, and at us in Russia such concepts as honour and independence have no price, that is for Russian these categories are invaluable.
All those who stinted then in the price lost honour and independence.

/
udachi / good luck

Yuri

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Re: The Year of Ten Victories by Russian historians

#40

Post by Psomax » 02 Jul 2014, 07:17

Panzermahn wrote:what are the ten victories claimed by the Russians?
HERE IS THE LIST:
http://IndianTake.blogspot.in/2014/07/1 ... ories.html

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