Battle of Berlin

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kon
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Re: Battle of Berlin

#46

Post by kon » 26 Apr 2009, 01:34

BlackPaw wrote:The below are from wikipedia article on Battle of Berlin.

Casualties and losses
SOVIET
Archival research
(operational total)
81,116 dead or missing[Khrivosheev, pp. 219,220.] (including 2,825 Polish[Khrivosheev, pp. 219,220.])
280,251 sick or wounded
Total casualties 361,367 men
1,997 tanks,
2,108 artillery pieces,
917 aircraft[Khrivosheev, pp. 219,220.]

GERMAN
458,080 killed,
479,298 captured[Glantz, p. 271]
Total casualties 937,378 men
Inside Berlin Defence Area:
22,000 civilian dead,
about 22,000 military dead[Antill, p. 85]

I dont know which figures to take as the most plausible.
In 1945 Germans on east front have lost under the German data of 190 thousand killed
Glantz has imagined

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Re: Battle of Berlin

#47

Post by kon » 26 Apr 2009, 01:48

German losses in the Berlin operation were about 30 thousand killed


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Re: Battle of Berlin

#48

Post by Qvist » 26 Apr 2009, 18:33

There is no such thing as reliable data for either German killed in action in 1945 or killed in action in Berlin. Glantz is quoting some estimate, which could just as well be completely wrong as relatively accurate. The most that is possible to hope for given the state of the documentation and the limitations of other methodologies is to produce a rough approximation of the overall casualties. There is no way to distinguish adequately between killed and soldiers who died after capture, which given the huge size of the latter category and the fact that almost a million soldiers are still unaccounted for has an enormous impact on that issue. Hence, the issue of German battle deaths in 1945 is in practice unresolveable. To take estimates that are bandied about, like Glantz's, seriously is to believe in Santa Claus.

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Re: Battle of Berlin

#49

Post by kon » 26 Apr 2009, 19:34

Calculations of losses by Boris Sokolov

http://www.infran.ru/vovenko/60years_ww ... r8_2.htm#4
Irrevocable losses vermacht up to November, 1944 are full enough considered according to personal the account of losses. During the period from September, 1st, till December, 31st, 1944 ground forces have lost killed in the field of fight, and also died of wounds, illnesses, accidents and for other reasons of 1750,3 thousand persons, and missing persons - 1609,7 thousand persons. The fleet for the same period has lost 60 thousand persons victims and 100,3 thousand persons missing persons, and military-air forces - 155 thousand victims and 148,5 thousand missing persons. Losses from January, 1st on April, 30th, 1945 the central bodies of the account of losses were estimated for ground forces in 250 thousand victims and 1 million missing persons, for the Navy - in 5 thousand victims and 5 thousand missing persons, and for the Air Forces - in 10 thousand victims and 7 thousand missing persons. {64} on character of calculations all missing persons in ground forces during the period from January, 1st till April, 30th, 1945 Can be carried to number of the captured. As well for this period in the Navy and the Air Forces it is possible to consider the majority of missing persons captured. More difficult with those who was missing till the end of 1944 the Death-roll among them it is possible to estimate, having subtracted from total number of missing persons in ground forces during this period approximate number captured, grasped by opponents of Germany. It is known that in May, 1943 in Tunis the German ground forces have lost captured about 90 thousand persons. On the Western front from June till December it has been taken prisoner more than 210 thousand persons, in Italy - about 20 thousand persons. {65} the number of missing persons in the east till January, 1945 has made 1 million persons, number captured it is possible to estimate in 544 thousand persons. This figure is received by subtraction from total number captured, grasped by Red Army till the end of 1944 (997 thousand persons), 202 thousand Romanian, 49 thousand Italians and 2 thousand Finns (all of them could be captivated only till the end of 1944) And also 200 thousand from 514 thousand Hungarian military men taken prisoner. {66} in this case about 456 thousand missing persons in the east till the end of 1944 it is necessary to carry to victims. On other theatres of war from 610 thousand missing persons till the end of 1944 of military men of ground forces about 290 thousand can be carried to number of the killed. It gives a death-roll in ground forces from the beginning of war and till the end of 1944 in 2496 thousand persons. In the Navy from among missing persons we is conditional nine tenth we carry to the lost seamen who have sunk together with the ships. In this case total number of victims till the end of 1944 in fleet can be estimated in 150 thousand persons. In the Air Forces we conditionally accept that half of missing persons can be carried to victims, and other half - to captured then total number of victims in the German aircraft till the end of 1944 can be estimated in 229 thousand persons. During the period from January, 1st till April, 30th 1945 г, everything which were missing in the Air Forces and the Navy, we conditionally carry to number of the captured. Killed in May, 1945 we estimate losses in 10 thousand persons, mainly from structure of ground forces. Then total number of victims in ground forces should be estimated in 2756 thousand, in the Navy - in 155 thousand and in the Air Forces - in 239 thousand persons, and for вермахта in whole (together with armies СС) - in 3,15 million persons. Losses captured till the end of April, 1945 are estimated in 1854 thousand for ground forces, 15 thousand for the Navy and 81 thousand for the Air Forces. Calculation of losses captured for the next days wars loses meaning in connection with the beginning of mass delivery in a captivity of all German army.
During the period from January, 1st till April, 30th, 1945 from 1 million captured from structure of ground forces of 615 thousand was it is taken on the Western front (290 thousand - in January-March and - in April in the Ruhr copper), {67} number captured in Italy it is possible to estimate 325 thousand in 10 thousand, other 375 thousand captured were are taken on East front. On a share of East front during this period we also carry half captured of structure of fleet and one third of captured Air Forces from structure - all about 5 thousand persons.
In total in Soviet to a captivity has visited 2,73 million former military men of the German army (2,390 million Germans, 157 thousand Austrians, the others - Czechs, Slovaks, Poles, Frenchmen, Yugoslavs and so forth) From which has died in a captivity of 450,6 thousand persons. Besides, the Soviet armies have captivated about 215 thousand the former Soviet citizens serving in коллаборационистских formations or as support personnel ("volunteer assistants") in German parts. We will notice that after the German capitulation on May, 9th and after Red Army 1391 thousand persons, and earlier, during the period from May, 1 till May, 8th, under some data, 635 thousand persons have surrendered. {68} total number of victims in a captivity of the German military men is estimated by experts of German service of search in 800 thousand persons. {69} taking into account the data about a death-roll in Soviet to a captivity quantity of the prisoners of war who have died in a captivity in the West, it is possible to define approximately in 350 thousand persons. In total in war was lost, by our estimation, about 3950 thousand military men вермахта, including here also the Austrians, Czechs, Poles, Balts and other citizens of the USSR and other countries serving in the German armed forces. This estimation practically coincides with B.Muller-Gillebranda's estimation - 4 million victims. {70}
Irrevocable losses of civilians of Germany in days of war are estimated approximately in 2 million persons. As a result of land operations victims here enter into last period of war, and also about 500 thousand victims of strategic bombardments of allied aircraft and 300 thousand citizens of Germany (anti-fascists, Jews and gipsies), victims in concentration camps or executed nazis. {71} the general irrevocable losses of Germany - 5,95 million persons have appeared in 7,3 times less than the Soviet irrevocable losses - 43,448 million persons. On irrevocable losses of civilians the parity appears even less favorable for the USSR - 8,5:1. Here the big losses of the Soviet population have affected during operations which in territory of the USSR proceeded much longer, than in the German territory, a genocide of nazis against Jews and gipsies and their severe reprisals against the peace population, especially in the areas captured by guerrilla struggle, and also considerable superfluous death rate of the Soviet population for hunger and illnesses, first of all territories, подвергшихся occupations (in Germany which till the end of war practically did not starve, similar superfluous death rate was not). We will note, as death rate among the German prisoners of war both in the east, and in the West though was considerable, but far did not reach a death rate of the Soviet prisoners of war which was lost almost two thirds. Here the brutal relation of camp German administration to the captured Red Army men who were not falling under action of the Geneva convention, and also calculation on lightning war in which use captured for military needs was not provided has affected first of all. Argument about large number Soviet captured, especially in 1941-1942 as about the reason of the raised death rate among them, it is hardly fair as last months wars and right after capitulations of the German captured allies in hands it has appeared in any way less, but difficulties of their maintenance and supply as a whole have been overcome, though among separate groups captured, taken in extreme conditions and after long blockade, death rate has appeared is very great: the majority captured, taken in Stalingrade and Tunis has not come back home.

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Re: Battle of Berlin

#50

Post by Qvist » 26 Apr 2009, 20:55

This as far as I can see adds nothing, it just reiterates to the well-known estimates produced at the end of the war which are also quoted and used by Müller-Hillebrand, Overmans and Krivosheev, and which are riddled with insecurities and assumptions. They are no substitute for proper data, and certainly does not allow any vey meaningful conclusions about the number of German soldiers killed in action in the East in 1945, let alone in Berlin specifically.

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Re: Battle of Berlin

#51

Post by Art » 26 Apr 2009, 21:29

Qvist wrote: Glantz is quoting some estimate, which could just as well be completely wrong as relatively accurate.
Glantz quotes from "Berlin operation 1945", which in its turn uses data from journals of operations of 1st and 2nd Belorussian and 1st Ukrainian Fronts. As usual in case of this kind of estimates, the staffs didn't spare enemy lives.

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Re: Battle of Berlin

#52

Post by Qvist » 26 Apr 2009, 21:50

As suspected then. :)

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Re: Battle of Berlin

#53

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 17 Aug 2010, 13:13

Until recently the Russians had claimed that they lost 10,000 men during the battle for the Seelow Heights and 100,000 in Berlin. The actual figures are unknown. Yet no less than 30,000 Red Army soldiers were killed at Seelow
Russian claim about 10,000 men dead as the result of the battle for the Seelow Heights is correct.

But there is no detailed data on losses of 8GA so maybe its casualties are exaggerated and real losses were smaller.

In total around 8500 - 9000+ soldiers of nine Soviet armies were killed in the battle of Seelow Heights. And if not including casualties of 8GA losses of the remaining 8 armies in that battle were around 6,000 killed:

16 April:

1GTA - 26 KIA, 117 WIA
61A - 94 KIA, 204 WIA
47A - 169 KIA, 977 WIA
3SA - 158 KIA, 483 WIA
69A - 312 KIA, 1417 WIA

5SA - 369 KIA, 1298 WIA

2GTA
8GA
33A

17 April:

1GTA - 38 KIA, 175 WIA
61A - 119 KIA, 284 WIA
47A - 210 KIA, 1251 WIA
3SA - 113 KIA, 417 WIA
69A - 308 KIA, 1276 WIA

5SA - 615 KIA, 2034 WIA

2GTA
8GA
33A

18 April:

1GTA - 90 KIA, 355 WIA
61A - 95 KIA, 365 WIA
47A - 156 KIA, 625 WIA
3SA - 119 KIA, 416 WIA
69A - 88 KIA, 297 WIA

5SA - estimated ca. 250 KIA

2GTA
8GA
33A

19 April:

1GTA - 135 KIA, 678 WIA
61A - 86 KIA, 363 WIA
47A - 287 KIA, 1112 WIA
3SA - 166 KIA, 594 WIA
69A - 204 KIA, 652 WIA

5SA - estimated ca. 250 KIA

If it comes to other armies:

Losses of 33rd Army 15 – 20 April: 1,687 killed, 7,213 wounded, 128 missing, 13 non-battle, 206 diseased
Losses of 8th Gds Army 16 – 20 April: 12,000 - 13,000 total casualties
Losses of 5th Shock Army 1 – 30 April: 3,628 killed, 13,702 wounded, 60 missing, 476 by other causes
Losses of 2nd Gds Tank Army (without army troops) 16 – 21 April: 265 killed, 1,530 wounded:

http://niehorster.orbat.com/012_ussr/45 ... uards.html

So 16 - 19 April:

2GTA - estimated ca. 200 - 300 killed (including casualties of army troops)
8GA - estimated ca. 2500 - 3000 + / - killed
33A - estimated 1120+ killed, 85+ missing, 4810+ wounded

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Re: Battle of Berlin

#54

Post by Richard Hargreaves » 17 Aug 2010, 13:51

From Kunz, Wehrmacht und Niederlage, p.155
A few weeks later, the General Staff calculated the losses of the Feldheer in the first two months of 1945: 660,000 men. Over the same period, replacements were only 300,000 soldiers. At the same time organisational experts expected the “difference between losses and replacements in the first quarter of 1945 would worsen considerably”. The administration of the Wehrmacht had to admit that closing the chasm between losses and replacements was impossible and the responsible authorities would oversee the dissolution of the fighting elements of the Wehrmacht. Nevertheless it must be pointed out that even the most pessimistic assessment of the situation did not match the true scale of losses. Subsequent estimates based on sample methods suggest that the number of dead Wehrmacht soldiers in the first month of 1945 reached the record level of 450,000, followed by 280,000 dead monthly in February to April and another 95,000 dead in May 1945. In the last four and a half months of the war, therefore, one third of all Germany’s fallen soldiers were killed.
From memory I think this a paraphrase/based on Overmans findings; nearly 1.4m dead, if it is an accurate figure, then it is, to quote Bjørge Lillelien, "one hell of a beating"...

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Re: Battle of Berlin

#55

Post by Michate » 17 Aug 2010, 16:37

I would take Overmans' figures for the 1945 months with caution.

As Overmans's own tables reveal, for less than half of his calculated number of dead is the death actually recorded, while for the rest they are listed as missing or unclarified fates.

While it is quite plausible to assume the overwhelming majority of these unclear cases died one way and time or the other, it makes such things as establishing the date of death by his method very unreliable.

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Re: Battle of Berlin

#56

Post by Qvist » 18 Aug 2010, 09:58

Richard Hargreaves wrote:From Kunz, Wehrmacht und Niederlage, p.155
A few weeks later, the General Staff calculated the losses of the Feldheer in the first two months of 1945: 660,000 men. Over the same period, replacements were only 300,000 soldiers. At the same time organisational experts expected the “difference between losses and replacements in the first quarter of 1945 would worsen considerably”. The administration of the Wehrmacht had to admit that closing the chasm between losses and replacements was impossible and the responsible authorities would oversee the dissolution of the fighting elements of the Wehrmacht. Nevertheless it must be pointed out that even the most pessimistic assessment of the situation did not match the true scale of losses. Subsequent estimates based on sample methods suggest that the number of dead Wehrmacht soldiers in the first month of 1945 reached the record level of 450,000, followed by 280,000 dead monthly in February to April and another 95,000 dead in May 1945. In the last four and a half months of the war, therefore, one third of all Germany’s fallen soldiers were killed.
From memory I think this a paraphrase/based on Overmans findings; nearly 1.4m dead, if it is an accurate figure, then it is, to quote Bjørge Lillelien, "one hell of a beating"...
I agree with Michate. But I'm impressed that you can quote Bjørge Lillelien. :)

Note that the figure 660,000 referred to must be not dead, but dead, wounded and missing. There is an early March Org.Abt. report giving 606,000 casualties in Jan-Feb not for the Feldheer, but just for the Ostheer. There is no doubt that this is too low - the report itself states so. Either Kunz refers to a different but contemporaneous assessment which reckons with 50-60,000 casualties in the West and Italy, or he has quoted the scope and figure wrong.

It is worth noting that comparatively, these are already very high figures. In fact, even 660,000 in two months will have been umprecedented, save perhaps for the summer of 1944. 300,000 replacements in two months is also a very high figure - roughly 100,000 a month in the East is fairly average by the standards of the previous years. There is quite a lot of documentation on Ersatzheer activities of the period, and of the manpower mobilisation.

However, there's a looong way from that to 730,000 dead alone. So long in fact that in my opinion this figure risks defying basic plausibility. Even if you take into account that not all the losses occurred in the East, and assume a high death rate among wounded and captured soldiers, it in fact becomes hard to see how the Ostheer could possibly have had many men left in the field at the end of that period if that was correct, considering that it had a strength of less than 2 million at the beginning of the year.

Let's check the strength data we have.

On 22 December 1944, Army Group South reported an Iststärke (without SS and foreign troops) of 212,860. By 10 February, they had 293,169 (although the composition had changed). On 1 March - with the same commands - it had an Iststärke of 332,000 + more than 30,000 Hiwis.

HG Kurland still had an Iststärke of more than 170,000 as late as 1 March (just in its Verbände and fechtende Heerestruppen). HG Mitte reported 475,000, plus more than 50,000 Hiwis on 14 March - and this does not include Foreign and SS troops, of whom there were nearly 50,000.

The above reports are detailed and useful (being standardised Iststärkemeldungen), but the data is of course much too fragmentary to provide a clear general overview. They show however that the Ostheer were still deploying very considerable forces in the East as late as mid-March, and there at least had been no general collapse in strength as far as these commands are concerned.

By April, Org.Abt. estimated the Istst. of the Ostheer at 1,430,000 (handwritten note, no date). If this is correct, that means the decline in Ostheer strength during the first 3-4 months of 1945 amounted to perhaps half a million men, perhaps less. When you take into account the plausible extent of replacements and reinforcements, that would as far as I can see be indicative of something in the general area of 1 million casualties over this period. It's rather tough to fit more than 1 million dead into that (or potentially as many as 1.4 million, if you assume the Org.Abt.estimate refers to late or end of April).

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Re: Battle of Berlin

#57

Post by Richard Hargreaves » 18 Aug 2010, 20:29

Qvist wrote: Note that the figure 660,000 referred to must be not dead, but dead, wounded and missing. There is an early March Org.Abt. report giving 606,000 casualties in Jan-Feb not for the Feldheer, but just for the Ostheer. There is no doubt that this is too low - the report itself states so.
Ostfront only. 8O Wow. I always thought the figures were all fronts. I knew the Vistula-Oder offensive was crushing, but that really is devastating. It's interesting how over the past few years, Overmans figures have become readily accepted by a lot of mainstream historians.

Forget "they think it's all over". Bjørge Lillelien = best football commentary ever. They play it quite often in the UK. It's a bit like the Germans watching Dinner for One. :D

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Re: Battle of Berlin

#58

Post by Qvist » 20 Aug 2010, 08:35

Ostfront only. Wow. I always thought the figures were all fronts.
Yes, but on the other hand they are dead, wounded and missing. Hence they are in effect lower than the one referred to in Kunz.
It's interesting how over the past few years, Overmans figures have become readily accepted by a lot of mainstream historians.
Unfortunately yes. Well, the problem is not so much that they are accepted, but rather that they are put to uses for which they are not suited. Historians tend to quote them as if they were normal casualty figures, which they are not. Most particularly not in 1945.

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Re: Battle of Berlin

#59

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 20 Aug 2010, 11:10

I knew the Vistula-Oder offensive was crushing, but that really is devastating.
I guess it was the most successful Red Army offensive when comparing costs to results. Much smaller losses than for example in Bagration with an even more stunning result. Probably this can be attributed to the easy terrain conditions for the attacker and hard for the defender (even though it was Winter so not a very favourable season for offensive) in the entire region between the Vistula and Oder. By the end of the operation blizzards, worsening weather conditions, logistical problems and increasing German resistance at the Oder halted the Soviet advance.

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Re: Battle of Berlin

#60

Post by Qvist » 20 Aug 2010, 11:51

I guess it was the most successful Red Army offensive when comparing costs to results.
Surely that distinction has to go to Iassy-Kishinev, in which the Red army losses were trivial while the German losses were horrenduous? The Vistula-Oder operation cost the Red Army nearly 200,000 casualties (up to 3 February), after all.

In any case, only 240,000 of those 606,000 casualties are for Heeresgruppe Weichsel or Mitte. Obviously this is one of the areas in which the report is likely to be incomplete, but this nevertheless shows that the volume of German losses was not fundamentally or mainly a result of just that offensive. For instance, Nord (previously Mitte, who opposed the East Prussian operation) is recorded with 213,000.

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