Soviet vs. German losses in WWII

[Qvist]

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Kunikov wrote: 
So you're saying that if one were to add up all the operations undertaken by the Red Army, then subtract the number of total losses for the Red Army in WWII, we would be left with these 'outside' operations? 



Well no. The number you are left with is the number not accounted for by the major operations. It is really a very rough approximation. Try to do a search for this - there was a long thread in which Qvist mentioned this, unless I am getting senile. 

All the best 

Andreas

If one adds up the losses in all the strategic operations listed by Krivosheev, this accounts for nowhere near the total losses. See Soviet Fronts Strength sticky, where losses in individual operations can be compared to overall losses per year per Front.

cheers

[Deine-Zukunft]

So qvist.What do you think about finns killing over 1 million russians between 1939-1944.

[Qvist]

Dimitry:

Actually Krivosheev figures are these ( http://www.rus-sky.org/history/library/ ... c536603354 ):

KIA - 6,885,100
MIA - 4,559,000
MIA(consripts before they joined army) - 500,000

Total - 11,444,100

And wounded:

In hospitals under treatment 1,046,000
Dischargees as wounded 3,798,200
Returned to the ranks after recovery (from wounds and diseases) 17,157,243

This mixes together two different things. What you quote on wounded is the distribution through the war of the ultimate fate of wounded and sick soldiers. What I am talking about is the number of casualty cases in the wounded (not sick) category, plus the number of killed and missing. These can be found in table 69. This is the normal way of accounting for casualties in any army.

However - I am guilty of flabby recollection. I remembered the number of sick slightly wrong, and also forgot that dead from sickness etc should be deducted from the killed. Hence, the correct overall figure for Soviet combat losses (or at least for Krivosheev's figure for it) is 25,944,241. It pays to check.

cheers

cheers

[Dmitry]

Hence, the correct overall figure for Soviet combat losses (or at least for Krivosheev's figure for it) is 25,944,241.

Well, then in this figure one man could be count twice, thrice etc because of wounded category? Is it correct to operate with such summ?

[Qvist]

Hi Dimitri

Yes, he would be counted more than once, and yes, it would be correct to do so. Running casualty accounting is neccessarily on a case basis, not a person basis. The German figures are on exactly the same basis. In any case, what does it matter? A soldier lost (if only temporarily) to wounds is a soldier lost to wounds, whether he has been wounded before or not.

And one does not even escape this with the so-called irrecoverable losses: A soldier might be taken prisoner, liberated and re-conscripted, wounded, return to duty and then killed. In personnell accounting, he is two replacements and three casualties (of whom two are in the "irrecoverable" group).

cheers

[Dmitry]

The German figures are on exactly the same basis.

So, from MH:
01.09.1939 - 31.12.1944

1,965,324 (KIA) + 1,858,404 (MIA) + 5,240,000 (wounded) = 9,063,728

+ unknoun figure for 1945 (most disastrous year for Gernans like 1941 for Soviets)

and

+ German's satelites

[Qvist]

Dimitri:

I do not recall this particular set of figures, and shall have to look at MH to comment further on them. But they certainly refer to all fronts, not just the East. They still seem very strangely high - are you sure this does not include estimated losses for 1945?


cheers

[Dmitry]

Dimitri:

I do not recall this particular set of figures, and shall have to look at MH to comment further on them. But they certainly refer to all fronts, not just the East. They still seem very strangely high - are you sure this does not include estimated losses for 1945?


cheers

Yes I know that's for all frons. And yes I'm sure it's only for 1939-1944. I have the book before my eyes.

[Qvist]

And they don't include sick, accidents etc, either? The figures for killed and missing are more or less possible to square with other sources if they are as inclusive as they can be, but the wounded figure is about a million higher than any other source I can find (and they are fairly numerous).

Russian edition I suppose, so it's no use asking for a page number. But can you make it a little easier for me to find it? Is it in one of the appendixes of vol. III?

cheers

[Dmitry]

It's in appendix in the very end of the book (in Russian edition all volumes are in one)
Appendix A
II Troop population
3.Review on loses

The column is named just "wounded"

[Qvist]

OK Dimitri, thanks, that should be easy to find then. I'll check out the German original tonight and get back to you.

cheers

[Michate]

So, from MH:
01.09.1939 - 31.12.1944

1,965,324 (KIA) + 1,858,404 (MIA) + 5,240,000 (wounded) = 9,063,728

+ unknoun figure for 1945 (most disastrous year for Gernans like 1941 for Soviets)

and

+ German's satelites

1,965,324 is the number of dead for all causes (including died of wounds, diseases, accidents etc.), not just killed in action (which is certainly a large subset). It is taken from the Wehrmachtverlustwesen records (OKW/AWA/WVW(V)).

I have a more detailed breakdown of the numbers from the Wehrmachtverlustwesen not for 31.12.1944, but for 30.11.1944, when the number of dead was 1,911,300 (this is appended to Hermann Jung's dissertation on the Ardennes offensive). This included 1,725,616 killed or died from wounds received by enemy action, 175,901 killed through accident, disease and suicide and 9513 executed by military justice for crimes committed. Breakdown to branches was as follows: Army+W-SS: 1,709,739, Navy: 51,774, Air force: 149,787.

Additionally the figures include all fronts from 1939 to 31.12.1944, e.g. 66.266 dead and 3.218 missing in the West prior to 30. May 1944 and 54.754 dead and 338,933 missing in the West between 1 June and 30 November 1944, as is listed in M.-H. as well (3 pages later).

Finally, Zetterling and Frankson in an article in the Journal of Slavic Military Studies look at a similar set of figures from Wehrmachtverlustwesen, which however does not include the period 1.9.1939-21.06.1941, so the figures are slightly lower. The figures presented there show 1,239,425 army and W-SS soldiers killed in action, including 1,091,962 on Eastern front, the rest in other theaters, 219,087 air force soldiers killed in action (including Eastern front: 53,469) and 34,998 navy soldiers (including Eastern front: 8,039). Additionally 278,480 army and W-SS soldiers died from wounds received by the enemy and 134,536 died for other reasons such as accidents and diseases. All these figures covering the period 22.06.1941 - 31.12.1944.

[Dmitry]

1,965,324 is the number of dead for all causes (including died of wounds, diseases, accidents etc.), not just killed in action (which is certainly a large subset). It is taken from the Wehrmachtverlustwesen records.

I have a breakdown of the numbers not for 30.12.1944, but for 30.11.1944, when the number of dead was 1,911,300 (this is appended to Hermann Jung's dissertation on the Ardennes offensive). This included 1,725,000 killed or died from wounds received by enemy action, 175,901 killed through accident, disease and suicide and 9513 executed by military justice for crimes committed.

You are maybe right, but in the book they are listed as "killed" not "died". Maybe it's incorrect translation though.

Additionally the figures include all fronts from 1939 to 31.12.1944, e.g. 66.266 dead and 3.218 missing in the West prior to 30. May 1944 and 54.754 dead and 338,933 missing in the West between 1 June and 30 November 1944, as is listed in M.-H. as well (3 pages later).

Thank you. I didn't notice that information. So it's easy to separatethe figures for Eastern front, although there is no information about wounded in the West. It could be estimated though.

[Michate]

You are maybe right, but in the book they are listed as "killed" not "died". Maybe it's incorrect translation though.

The German original of M.-H. says dead ("Tote"), so it must be fuzzy translation. See also the comparable set of figures for 30.11.1944 I mentioned.

Thank you. I didn't notice that information. So it's easy to separatethe figures for Eastern front, although there is no information about wounded in the West. It could be estimated though.

You are welcome. The mentioned artcile from Zetterling/Frankson provides figures for wounded for the period 22.06.1941-30.12.1944 too:

Total army and W-SS soldiers wounded: 3,903,543 (including Eastern front: 3,459,568).
Air force: 199,726 (114,732)
Navy: 25,259 (6,691).

However, on cross-comparison with the figures for wounded provided in M.-H., there is a discrepancy of roughly 1,000,000 wounded. While M.-H.'s figures additionally include the period 1.09.1939-21.06.1941, this IMHO cannot account for such a high figure. Perhaps someone with better knowledge might answer on that.

[Dmitry]

You are maybe right, but in the book they are listed as "killed" not "died". Maybe it's incorrect translation though.

The German original of M.-H. says dead ("Tote"), so it must be fuzzy translation. See also the comparable set of figures for 30.11.1944 I mentioned.

In excuse of translator I have to say that it most likely was not an intentional mistake. In Rus-Ger dictionary it says that 'tote' also means 'killed' (Russian word for that) when it comes to statistic and reports.