Battle for Belgrade (1944 X)

[asiaticus]

Sigh. Yes its the 20th Flak Division. My bad.

[Qvist]

Hi Andreas

Ziemke confirms that, as does Lexikon der Wehrmacht. The division was encircled in the Morava valley during the Belgrade campaign. On 18 Oct 1944 it attempted to break out. This succeeded under destruction of all heavy weapons and with heavy losses, including the divisional commander (not sure what happened to him, but on the 19th the division seems to have received a new commander). At the time the division command was in charge of a Kampfgruppe in the Morava valley (the division itself and the forces sent out to relieve it which had then become encircled in turn). The number of those managing to get out across the Sava river at Sabac is given as 12,000 in Army Group F KTB, but a later supplement to the KTB (25 Oct) states that 'the actual number "was substantially smaller."' Ziemke Stalingrad to Berlin pp.375-77

My guess from this is that the division can be rated as effectively destroyed in the battle. Regimental histories on Lexikon der Wehrmacht mention they were somewhat (notduerftig) brought up to strength again.

This is starting to get interesting. There appears to be no shortage of reliable narratives indicating that the German losses here ought to be very serious. At the same time, it's difficult to find this reflected in documented losses, unlike f.e. at Narwa or the Crimea. But as said, I am critically handicapped with my very limited familiarity with this campaign. Could it be, f.e., that some German units suffered very heavy losses, but that only a limited number were invoved in heavy fighting? Given the period, there remains also the possibility of substantial flaws in the reported figures however.

MH Vol III has the following disbandments to the end of 1944 for SE:

264. ID (bo) - into 264.VGD
133. Festungsdivision - disbanded
Sturmdivision Rhodos - into PzGrDiv Brandenburg, divisional staff as staff IV. Pzkp

Thanks for that - I checked only those units that had disappeared off the OOBs quoted. For SD Rhodos however (which I did look into as part of the search for Sturmrgt Rhodos), Nafziger seems to indicate that it was only elements of the division that was absorbed into BrB? The document quoted only goes up to 15 November, and so is not neccessarily contradictory. It may of course also simply not cover OB SO, but since it does cover both the EF and OB West, it seems questionable to assume this.

Mark: thanks for further data. I'll have to sit down with the reports again to look at just KIA and MIA.

cheers

[Qvist]

Hello Rommel_Gaj

Way off topic Mr. Quist,but I'll ask anyway:

Would you have casaulty figures for Befehlshaber der Deutsches Truppen in Kroatien for the last two weeks of May and two first week of June 1943?

Thanks very much,

Gaius

Sorry, but no, I have no figures this specific, just for the higher commands I'm afraid.

cheers

[asiaticus]

From what I had read 133. Festungsdivision was the garrison of Crete to the end of the war under the command of Military Commander East Aegaeis.
If it was disbanded what did those forces transform into?

[asiaticus]

Here is where I got that oob for the Axis forces:


http://www.vojska.net/ww2/battles/beograd/axis.asp

And the allied side

http://www.vojska.net/ww2/battles/beograd/allies.asp

[G. Trifkovic]

MH Vol III has the following disbandments to the end of 1944 for SE:

264. ID (bo) - into 264.VGD

AFAIK 264.ID has been wiped out in Knin (minus one regiment which ,according to Richberg,was sent as a KG to Serbia in early fall of 1944)in November-December 1944,and struck from the OKW list. According to http://www.lexikonderwehrmacht.de some attempts were made to reconstitute the division in early 1945,but I couldn't find any reference to 264. Volksgrenadierdivision.

Cheers,

Gaius

[Jan-Hendrik]

For the fate of 264.ID have a look in here :

http://www.diedeutschewehrmacht.de/264%20inf%20div.htm

Jan-Hendrik

[G. Trifkovic]

Yesterday,62 years ago Belgrade was liberated. Original Radio Moscow bulliten:

http://www.sovmusic.ru/english/download ... e=levita11

Cheers,

[Glynwed]

Hallo, have a little question. As I red this threate, especially the OOB, I dont find the SS-Polizei Regiment 19 in this OOB. When I trace friend´s Grandfather (born in 1902, drafted in some 1943) fate in WWII, there was an information from WAST that this person, as member of SS-Pol.Rgt. 19, is missing since 16.10. 1944 near Ritopek village (SE from Belgrade). By memories of relatives, he wear on his cap an "Edelweis" badge - was it usual at SS-Polizei Regiments serving at Yugoslavia?

As I know, in this region was encircled part of 1.Geb.D. (Kampfgruppe Wittmann). Was there any part of SS-Pol.Rgt. 19?

Thanks for any hint.

[Mark V.]

Hallo, have a little question. As I red this threate, especially the OOB, I dont find the SS-Polizei Regiment 19 in this OOB. When I trace friend´s Grandfather (born in 1902, drafted in some 1943) fate in WWII, there was an information from WAST that this person, as memebr of SS-Pol.Rgt. 19, is missing since 16.10. 1944 near Ritopek village (SE from Belgrade). By memories of relatives, he wear on his cap an "Edelweis" badge - was it ususal at SS-Polizei Regiments serving at Yugoslavia?

As I know, in this region was encircled part of 1.Geb.D. (Kampfgruppe Wittmann). Was there any part of SS-Pol.Rgt. 19?

Thanks for any hint.

Strange, SS-Pol.Rgt.19 never operated in Serbia. It was formed in summer 1942 in the German occupied part of Slovenia from three Police battalions already stationed there. The Regiment remained there until February/March 1944 when it was transferred to France but it returned to Slovenia in November 1944 and stayed there till the end of the war. And for some reason it wasn't unusual for the policemen stationed in Slovenia to wear Edelweiss patches.

[asiaticus]

Map of the Wittman Groups last stand.

http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/maps ... lgrad7.gif

[Glynwed]

Strange, SS-Pol.Rgt.19 never operated in Serbia. It was formed in summer 1942 in the German occupied part of Slovenia from three Police battalions already stationed there. The Regiment remained there until February/March 1944 when it was transferred to France but it returned to Slovenia in November 1944 and stayed there till the end of the war. And for some reason it wasn't unusual for the policemen stationed in Slovenia to wear Edelweiss patches.

Thanks for answer. Unfortunatelly, there were no fotos or documents from friend´s Grandfather left. S o only information are from his grandmam - she remember he wear an Edelweis badge on his cap, he have to reved at Greece and during retreat he was captured by Yugoslavians. Fortunately, he speak Czech, so he wasnt shoot and relesed from captivity in September 1945 - lucky man he was.

But back to the topic......there is something wrong with SS-Pol.Rgt. 19 in October 1944 in Sebia. Can be WAST wrong?

[G. Trifkovic]

Soviet newsreel on the battle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... 0iyw#t=328

Cheers,

G.