Italian Tank Regiments
- ClintHardware
- Member
- Posts: 816
- Joined: 21 Jan 2011, 13:17
Italian Tank Regiments
Hi
I am doing some final editing and run into a basic problem I have put off solving until now - but so far all sources have confused me further:-
I have seen Italian documents on the net referring to reggimento carristi and others referring to reggimento corazzato
Can anyone give the definitive Italian World War Two reference and spelling to what the British refer to as an armoured regiment (singular) and armoured regiments (plural).
Thanks in advance.
I am doing some final editing and run into a basic problem I have put off solving until now - but so far all sources have confused me further:-
I have seen Italian documents on the net referring to reggimento carristi and others referring to reggimento corazzato
Can anyone give the definitive Italian World War Two reference and spelling to what the British refer to as an armoured regiment (singular) and armoured regiments (plural).
Thanks in advance.
Imperialism and Re-Armament NOW !
Re: Italian Tank Regiments
Clint.
If you get no replies here, try the Italian speakers here http://www.comandosupremo.com/forums/
David.
If you get no replies here, try the Italian speakers here http://www.comandosupremo.com/forums/
David.
- ClintHardware
- Member
- Posts: 816
- Joined: 21 Jan 2011, 13:17
Re: Italian Tank Regiments
Thanks David
Looking at Comando Supremo's forum the topics indicate that Carristi (Tankers) is the norm even though Corazzata means Armoured.
Jentz had two spellings for the latter which got me wondering - only to then find that Carristi is more numerous on Italian internet sites and downloads than Corazzata / Corazzato.
Until someone can tell me otherwise I will carry on referring to the 32o Reggimento Carristi.
Looking at Comando Supremo's forum the topics indicate that Carristi (Tankers) is the norm even though Corazzata means Armoured.
Jentz had two spellings for the latter which got me wondering - only to then find that Carristi is more numerous on Italian internet sites and downloads than Corazzata / Corazzato.
Until someone can tell me otherwise I will carry on referring to the 32o Reggimento Carristi.
Imperialism and Re-Armament NOW !
Re: Italian Tank Regiments
There were Reggimento/Battaglione Carristi (plural would presumably be Reggimenti Carristi, not sure for battalions), and Reggimento Carri D'Assalto (light tanks). Haven't come across Corrazato.
See e.g. p.7 here: http://www.assocarri.it/Unita_carriste/ ... o_1969.pdf
See e.g. p.7 here: http://www.assocarri.it/Unita_carriste/ ... o_1969.pdf
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
- ClintHardware
- Member
- Posts: 816
- Joined: 21 Jan 2011, 13:17
Re: Italian Tank Regiments
Thanks Urmel
Even with that link we have 32 Reggimento Fanteria Carrista and later Carri.
So still scratching my head.
Even with that link we have 32 Reggimento Fanteria Carrista and later Carri.
So still scratching my head.
Imperialism and Re-Armament NOW !
Re: Italian Tank Regiments
Reggimento Fanteria Carrista and Battaglione Carri + (name of vehicle).
Re: Italian Tank Regiments
It looks to me as if the names changed, unless you see Reggimento Fanteria Carrista crop up after 1940?
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
- ClintHardware
- Member
- Posts: 816
- Joined: 21 Jan 2011, 13:17
Re: Italian Tank Regiments
In the Storia del 132o Reggimento Carri (which seems to be the current regimental title) it seems that the regiment began before the war by attaching the battaglioni of the 4o Reggimento Carristi with the 32o Reggimento Carristi and assumed the latter's title, and that on the 1st September 1941 the regiment became re-titled as the 132o Reggimento Fanteria Carrista.
The use of corazzata seems only to be at divisional level.
The author of the Storia del 132o Reggimento Carri is not recorded on the pdf document I found on the internet, and I have no idea if it is an official history or put together by an interested party. The information it contains looks well researched with dates and officers' names etc.
So still not 100% certain but Jentz's use of Reggimento Corazzato seems incorrect so far.
The use of corazzata seems only to be at divisional level.
The author of the Storia del 132o Reggimento Carri is not recorded on the pdf document I found on the internet, and I have no idea if it is an official history or put together by an interested party. The information it contains looks well researched with dates and officers' names etc.
So still not 100% certain but Jentz's use of Reggimento Corazzato seems incorrect so far.
Imperialism and Re-Armament NOW !
Re: Italian Tank Regiments
Carristi = Tank.
Corazzato = Armour(ed)
So tank regiments in armoured divisions seems to be the phraseology.
( As an aside, I once got told off in this forum by a moderator for pointing out that the word Panzer is more accurately translated into "Armour(ed) than "Tank", but that was a long time ago).
Corazzato = Armour(ed)
So tank regiments in armoured divisions seems to be the phraseology.
( As an aside, I once got told off in this forum by a moderator for pointing out that the word Panzer is more accurately translated into "Armour(ed) than "Tank", but that was a long time ago).
Re: Italian Tank Regiments
We're all wrong. The picture below shows the regimental sigil in November 1941.
- Attachments
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- stamp.JPG (18.15 KiB) Viewed 1347 times
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
- ClintHardware
- Member
- Posts: 816
- Joined: 21 Jan 2011, 13:17
Re: Italian Tank Regiments
FANTASTIC ! Thanks.
Plus here seems to be a useful link on background regimental history: http://spazioinwind.libero.it/cico85/carristi.html.
Note Carristi and Carrista in this website seem to depend on context as well as plurality.
However, I am happy to stick to reggimento carrista within my writing from now on.
Plus here seems to be a useful link on background regimental history: http://spazioinwind.libero.it/cico85/carristi.html.
Note Carristi and Carrista in this website seem to depend on context as well as plurality.
However, I am happy to stick to reggimento carrista within my writing from now on.
Last edited by ClintHardware on 21 Apr 2014, 12:11, edited 2 times in total.
Imperialism and Re-Armament NOW !
Re: Italian Tank Regiments
"Wrong again"! Story of my life.
Urmel, are you sure you're not my wife, she says I am always wrong!
Urmel, are you sure you're not my wife, she says I am always wrong!
Re: Italian Tank Regiments
Just a warning, the symbol might not show the whole story. In fact it is possible that in official documents both different names appear.
Re: Italian Tank Regiments
Quite so. It appears the regiment referred to itself as carrista, while it is referred to by others as carristi?
- Attachments
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- indeed.JPG (34.1 KiB) Viewed 1299 times
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
Re: Italian Tank Regiments
Carristi is the plural of carrista. In this case it is probably to do with Italian language and when someone refers to itself in case of you stamp sign in the other post. But i am speculating.
As can be seen from your text. Granatieri and Bersaglieri also is plural. But Artiglieria is not. The plural of Artiglieria is Artiglierie, it is different kind of plural meaning typically diverse type of Artillery: naval, land , AAA
Italian unit names were not set on stone, and an old name might appear.
For example the Milizia AAA defense name was changed to MACA but many documents still named it as DICAT the old name.
I think the most interesting thing to know is when or if the Fanteria was dropped from the Reggimenti(plural) Carristi(plural)
As can be seen from your text. Granatieri and Bersaglieri also is plural. But Artiglieria is not. The plural of Artiglieria is Artiglierie, it is different kind of plural meaning typically diverse type of Artillery: naval, land , AAA
Italian unit names were not set on stone, and an old name might appear.
For example the Milizia AAA defense name was changed to MACA but many documents still named it as DICAT the old name.
I think the most interesting thing to know is when or if the Fanteria was dropped from the Reggimenti(plural) Carristi(plural)