Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

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Urmel
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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#76

Post by Urmel » 30 Jul 2014, 22:57

ClintHardware wrote:
Urmel wrote:The comparison also fails because the tanks that re-equipped 3 Armoured Brigade all were new issues to the formation, while PR5 had to make do with what was shipped to North Africa, except for some minor reinforcements (none of which had arrived by May I think).
I was not comparing regiments or armoured brigades I was comparing how historians have failed to report the history that is there within the elements of reported and also the unreported data we can access. And in terms of "elite" 5th RTR had 23 worn out A13s on the 31st March of which only 11 faced II. Panzer Regiment 5 on the 2nd April and still caused them significant damage - and 5th RTR were not followed or pursued by panzers. That is the action of an elite unit against great odds.
I don't even know how you would define 'elite', and I think it is a pretty pointless moniker that doesn't tell us anything worth knowing. I think 5 R.T.R. was a well-trained and professional outfit that you the right end from the wrong end of its business. So was PR5. So what?

You brought up the comparison of 3 Armoured Brigade and PR5, not me, not Brevity. My point is simply that it's not a valid comparison to make in the way you made it. This observation has nothing to do with what injustice historians may or may not have done to 3 Armoured Brigade
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#77

Post by nmao » 31 Jul 2014, 13:10

Hello.
Now playing the devil's advocate :)
Did all heavy equipment come through Naples?
How complete are the loading lists?
Is there anything equivalent for the italian side?
Don't want to sound ungrateful or greedy, but are they available somewhere?

Once again i wanna thank everybody for sharing their knowledge, and especially many primary/secondary sources that i would never get access to.
THANK YOU.

regards,

-Nuno


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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#78

Post by ClintHardware » 31 Jul 2014, 14:51

I am happy to let the data talk as well as the eye witnesses to the fighting (Sergeant Jake Wardrop, ‘C’ Squadron, 5th Royal Tank Regiment for one) - and Urmel you commented on my comparison hence my response.

Because 5th RTR was an under resourced but highly trained regular armoured unit and the way in which they dealt with II.PR5 on the 2nd April warrants appreciation of their skills and organisation in fighting some seven times their own numbers - and then getting out less five of their A13s.

Between 2nd May - 15th June PR5 and for sometime after, PR5 have more non-operational panzers (written-off and not repaired yet) than the combat losses of worn out A13s and Light Tanks Mk. VI from within 3rd Armoured Brigade (31st March - 15th June). However, to be fair PR5 was facing more anti-tank guns (2-Pdr and 37mm Bofors).

I can't find any reference to the 15+5 arriving after the 4th June so they add to the above comparison by their presence within the 96 - they may even be the ones gifted to PR5 by PR8.

Nmao I think you may have a point because I am wondering if Jentz could have mentioned all the panzer arrivals to replace losses. I need to do a spreadsheet of Jentz figures for both regiments. For example how is PR8 over resourced as Crusader starts and yet Jentz says it gave some panzers to PR5 and yet there were so few panzers arriving as replacements to make up losses.
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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#79

Post by Urmel » 31 Jul 2014, 15:24

ClintHardware wrote:I can't find any reference to the 15+5 arriving after the 4th June so they add to the above comparison by their presence within the 96 - they may even be the ones gifted to PR5 by PR8.
I've just given you the reference.
ClintHardware wrote: For example how is PR8 over resourced as Crusader starts and yet Jentz says it gave some panzers to PR5 and yet there were so few panzers arriving as replacements to make up losses.
One explanation would be that the total write offs were few.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#80

Post by Urmel » 31 Jul 2014, 15:27

nmao wrote:Hello.
1) Did all heavy equipment come through Naples?
2) How complete are the loading lists?
3) Is there anything equivalent for the italian side?
1) Yes, as far as I am aware, but I'd be happy to be corrected. Other loads were added in other places (Brindisi, Taranto), but the heavy stuff seems to have gone through Naples.
2) They appear to be complete to me, but that is very hard to check.
3) Probably, since the data is in the Italian official history, but I have no access to it.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#81

Post by Brevity » 01 Aug 2014, 07:02

The figure of 96 comes from this
Image

This is not an original source but British interpretation of captured papers.
Jentz never provided any evidence or explanation for the "some of these belonged to Pz.Rgt.8" part.

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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#82

Post by ClintHardware » 01 Aug 2014, 08:11

Hi Urmel I have looked at your link but can you please tell us what is the original source of the later than 4th June arrival of the 15+5?

Hi Brevity on page 117 of TCinNA Jentz refers to I. Abt being without any operational panzers at Tobruk so it looks as though Panzer Abteilung Hohmann remained largely combined with what remained of the operational panzers and their crews from both abteilungen as they moved to the border. If the 4th RHA were correct on the 12th May then the 42 panzers they counted places PR5 at roughly 29% operational in the frontier area. They caused ten panzers of those 42 to need recovery (an operation that was watched by 11th Hussars but not apparently stopped) and may have damaged more as Hohmann has 27 (IIRC) for the 15th May.

Thanks for linking the document Jentz seems to have referred to.
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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#83

Post by Urmel » 01 Aug 2014, 08:56

ClintHardware wrote:Hi Urmel I have looked at your link but can you please tell us what is the original source of the later than 4th June arrival of the 15+5?
Urmel wrote:Loading lists of the German navy office in Naples:

8x unspecified tanks for supply staff 683 in Africa on Ankara, outbound Naples 30 June, 32nd supply column
4x unspecified tanks, army supply, on Gritti, outbound Naples 30 June, 32nd supply column
8x Panzer III on Rialto, outbound 30 July, 38th supply column

I have been through the manifests twice now and can't find more.
Rialto is also for Nachschubstab 683
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#84

Post by nmao » 01 Aug 2014, 13:22

Brevity wrote:Jentz never provided any evidence or explanation for the "some of these belonged to Pz.Rgt.8" part.
I seem to remember the use of the word "loan" referring to the panzers from 8.PzR, but don't know the source.

Maybe it's only a deduction?
5.PzR ha already lost 1 pz IV on 2 April and at least 5 pz IV on 14 April, so for them to have 19 operational pz IV there must have been (at least) 6 pz IV from 8.PzR

Side note: does anyone have detailed losses for 14 April?
I have at least -5 IV; -1 III; -2 II; -unknown... for a total of 14 panzers lost.

regards,

-Nuno

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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#85

Post by ClintHardware » 03 Aug 2014, 09:03

Urmel do the manifests confirm that the ships arrived or are they confirmations of sailings?

The total number matches but there does not seem to be any other correlation. Jentz refers to the 15+5 being issued on the 4th June and that is 26 days before the first of the ships sailed/arrived. We do not know exactly what Jentz understood as "issued", or from what geographical point that issuing took place: Germany? Tripoli, Acroma? etc We also do not know if the 15+5 were the panzers that PR8 gave to PR5 and we do not know if that giving actually took place or was assumed for some reason by Jentz to have taken place.
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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#86

Post by Urmel » 03 Aug 2014, 10:12

The ships arrived. You can see Ankara and Gritti being under attack on the return march on 15 July here:

http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/3543.html

Rialto got to Tripoli on 1 August.

If you have any evidence whatsoever that the tanks were in North Africa before the dates I indicated, you are welcome to provide it. At the moment all I can see is supposition.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#87

Post by David W » 03 Aug 2014, 11:27

Can I please ask for some clarification over the dates of ARRIVAL IN NORTH AFRICA for the following German replacement panzers discussed earlier.

0/10/3

0/15/5

Thanks.

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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#88

Post by Urmel » 03 Aug 2014, 12:08

nmao wrote:Side note: does anyone have detailed losses for 14 April?
I have at least -5 IV; -1 III; -2 II; -unknown... for a total of 14 panzers lost.
II. Abteilung alone reported 1/1/1/5 as left in front of enemy positions. I have seen a total of 17 wrecks reported by the Australians, and Paulu's report on 12 may (quoted in CAB146/10) states 16 out of 38 lost, so that would mean I. Abteilung would have lost either 8 or 9 tanks?
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#89

Post by Urmel » 03 Aug 2014, 12:09

0/10/3 18th convoy on Wachtfels and Leverkusen 5 tanks each, on Castellon 3x 22t tanks all outbound Naples 8 April 41. All tanks designated as 'remainder PR5'.

0/15/5 - in two batches, 12 on 32nd convoy, in Tripoli first week of July 41, 8 on 38th convoy, in Tripoli 1 August 41
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#90

Post by David W » 03 Aug 2014, 12:15

Urmel. Thanks.

When does 0/10/3 arrive in Tripoli? Soon after 8th April 1941?

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