Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

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ClintHardware
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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#106

Post by ClintHardware » 08 Aug 2014, 16:47

Good point. I'll re-check the figures and amend. Thanks
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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#107

Post by ClintHardware » 09 Aug 2014, 09:09

My figures were wrong. Because of what we do not know about replacements shared between PR5 and PR8 the figures below include a least and worst scenario for PR5 but the two are close even after all the months of fighting.

I am surprised by the very low numbers of missing panzers. The British and Australians damaged over 100 between 31/3/41 - 14/5/41 to the point where they were no longer taking part in the immediate battle (some on fire, some turrets shot away etc)and yet so many were recovered and repaired. If there were more replacements delivered the situation would be different from the figures below but there seems to be no data for more replacements arriving. You would have thought that priority would have been given to blowing up derelicts as part of night patrols but I have not come across such intentions in War Diaries so far and these figures seem to confirm they did not have that priority.

Taking Jentz figures for what seems to be operational on the 17th and 18th November for PR5 and PR8 for Panzers II - IV:
.........................................................Pz II ........Pz III.........Pz IV
PR5 17/11/41........................................35............68............17
PR8 18/11/41........................................42............77............21
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PR5 and PR8 Total .................................77..........145............38 (Probably an Operational Total 18/11)
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Replacements
PR5 29/4 received ...................................0..............10............3 (Leverkusen replacements)
PR5 received .........................................0..............15.............5 July-August
PR5 &/or PR8 received .............................0...............4..............6 July-August
PR5 &/or PR8 received .............................0...............4..............0 July-August
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PR5 & PR8 Total replacements.....................0..............33......,.....14 Received Before 17/11/41
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PR5 in March 41.. ...................................45...........61...........17
PR8 April-May 41.....................................45...........71...........20
PR5 & PR8 Total replacements......................0...........33...........14 Received Before 17/11/41
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Total Landed PR5 & PR8............................90.........165...........51
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PR5 and PR8 Total .................................77..........145..........38 (Probably an Operational Total 18/11)
Total Landed PR5 & PR8...........................90..........165..........51
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PR5 and PR8 Missing 18/11........................13...........20...........13
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PR5 in March 41.. ..................................45............61.........17
PR5 March + all replacements................... 45............95.........31 (MAX possible total)
Less PR5 17/11/41.................................35............68.........17
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Worst Missing Panzer Totals .....................10............27.........14 PR5 Worst missing scenario 17/11
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PR5 in March 41.. .................................45............61...........17
Plus 29/4 received .................................0............10............3 (Leverkusen replacements)
Plus received ........................................0............15............5 July-August
Total.................................................45............86...........25 Assumes other replacements given to PR8
Less PR5 17/11/41.................................35............68...........17
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Least Missing Panzer Totals .....................10............18.............8 PR5 Least missing scenario 17/11
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#108

Post by ClintHardware » 10 Aug 2014, 12:40

On the basis of the above figures there seems to be no excuse for Generalleutnant Rommel being so dilatory in reaching Cairo. He explained to Lieutenant Hurst-Brown of the 1st Tower Hamlets Rifles on the 1st April over a cup of tea that he would be there within a week. Makes you wonder doesn't it.
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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#109

Post by ClintHardware » 11 Nov 2014, 15:15

Brevity wrote:Sadly the British were completely surprised and ran away like cowards so there was little action:
Image
The above was a touché from Brevity about the 12th May fire-fight which is not referred to in DAK KTB (IIRC) but it is covered by the 4th RHA and 3rd RHA War Diaries. It was in that firefight that a panzer had a turret shot off by a 25-Pdr at about 100 yards range.

I was intrigued by the reference to cowardice as well as lack of German losses. The Deutsches Afrikakorps Kriegstagebuch gives us this on the 12th May:

Der vorgesehene Raum wurde von Süden nach Norden durchgekämmt und vom Feinde gesäubert. Jnfolge seiner grossen Beweglichtkeit und und Schnelligkeit gelang es dem Englander, sich mit der Masse vor einer Entscheidung anscheinend Richtung Sidi Barrani zurückzuziehen.

Which translates along the lines of this:

The designated area was combed from south to north and found clear of enemy - as a result of their mobility and speed they had managed to avoid a decision (final destructive fight). Direction of withdrawal Sidi Barrani.

In addition the gun related losses listed/tabled on that page of the DAK KTB refer to PAUL Column being caught at close range due to a sandstorm on the 9th May and caught again on the 10th May.

The sentence above the table states: Als Ergebnis des Kampfes meldete Gruppe Herff which seems to refer to the table being a list of items over several encounters and not just the day of the entry, the 12th May.
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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#110

Post by Urmel » 11 Nov 2014, 16:33

The translation is not quite correct.

The designated area was combed from south to north and cleaned of the enemy. Due to their high mobility and speed the English managed to retreat from a decisive battle with his mass, apparently direction Sidi Barrani.

The list in my view only relates to the day of the 12th, and only to Gruppe Herff.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#111

Post by ClintHardware » 12 Nov 2014, 10:02

Hi Urmel

I know your German is excellent so I can't really argue...but I will ask a few questions....

I rechecked the 12th and two guns were lost on the 12th along with Major Goschen 4th RHA (there were three officers with the surname Goschen all related and present in the fighting at this time). But the list contains more than those lost on the 12th and includes numbers of personnel and guns similar to the 9th and 10th PAUL Column losses that the DAK KTB fails to describe.

Bing Translator (yes I know....) gives this for the sentence in question:

"The intended area was combed through from South to North and cleaned by the enemies. as a result of its great be way more and and speed succeeded the Englander apparently is with the crowd before a decision to withdraw towards Sidi Barrani."

Which is why I thought a better version would be this:

"The designated area was combed from south to north and found clear of enemy - as a result of their mobility and speed they had managed to avoid a decision (final destructive fight). Direction of withdrawal Sidi Barrani."

I used designated because it was the area focussed upon by the German operation.

Also why use kampfes instead of just kampf in the heading of the table/list? Bing did give me battles for kampfes momentarily.

Just checked Bing again for the fun of it and we get:

fight......................kampf
fighting..................kampfen
battle....................Schlacht
battles...................Schlachten
combat..................Bekämpfung
combats.................Prügelspiele
struggles................Kämpfe

So it might be an aggregate list of struggles booty and destroyed?
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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#112

Post by Urmel » 13 Nov 2014, 11:15

'des Kampfes' is singular, not plural. Plural would have been 'der Kaempfe'

The area may or may not have been clear of the enemy, but that is not what is stated. 'Saeubern' literally means to clear/clean up. So Herff claimed they had cleared the area through combing it. Also note the nuancing, that 'the mass' of the British troops managed to evade battle. Which implies that some did not.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#113

Post by ClintHardware » 14 Nov 2014, 10:12

Thanks Urmel

I will give all the variations in the chapter I am editing.
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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#114

Post by stevebecker » 22 Nov 2014, 07:39

Mate,

MY gransfather told stories of being a crewman in one MK 11 tank during the second attack on Tobrouk during which his tank cross the aussie front and was KO'ed in a mine field behind the front.

He said he remainded for two to three days with his tank in the minefield untill German engineers cleared a path when he could get out.

He never said anything about his tanks recovery but that possible soon after that.

He never mentioned anything about being attacked while there but he didn't say much about the war, these were stories he use to tell after a few beers on Anzac day where our aussie relatives would talk about the battle and he would say the same, but from the other side.

Cheers

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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#115

Post by ClintHardware » 24 Nov 2014, 00:25

Hi Steve

That is interesting. I can't imagine the Australians not picking off anyone trying to recover a panzer within their sight and range but perhaps it was possible if they could suppress the Australians temporarily to get the job done. I have not read any Australian reports of that being the case. It also indicates that there was no systematic examination of knocked out panzers being undertaken even under the cover of night - they must have had their reasons not too.
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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#116

Post by stevebecker » 24 Nov 2014, 01:44

Mate,

I dont know about that.

But he mentioned the crew were ordered to remain with the Tank untill German forces joined them, so I would explect they fought in the tank untill recovered.

Having working guns and in the middle of the minefield gave them some protection.

He didn't mention any other Tanks near him so how many were KO'ed in that mine field is unknown?

You would think if not ordered to stay they could have gotten out by following the Tank tracks back, but orders are orders.

He said he served in the 5th Panzer, but what Regt or Division is unknown as he also served in Russia, he didn't keep his book, it was taken from him with every thing else in 1945 after capture, though he still had his Cuff title, medals and badges including a Panzer badge (spares kept at the family home), all of which I still have.

He died in 1958 so these are just memories I have of him as I was young at that time.

S.B

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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#117

Post by Urmel » 24 Nov 2014, 21:15

Staying with the tank and continuing to fight in it even after immobilation was not that unusual:

http://rommelsriposte.com/2008/10/12/de ... sition-19/ (Matilda Mk. II attacking and running on mines outside BUTCH strong post on 21 November 41)

5th Panzer Regiment was part of 5th Light Division in 1941 (especially created for service in North Africa), which was converted into 21st Panzer Division during the summer of that year.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#118

Post by ClintHardware » 07 Dec 2014, 20:26

Hi All

I found this useful quote from Chester Wilmot's Tobruk and it is from a 1944 first edition of that book. The quote is referring to the 1st May 1941 and it lends itself to what Schorm said about recovery and also explains why those panzers were not shot full of holes before recovery could take place.

Captain Peter Gebhardt, ‘B’ Company, 2/24th Battalion
"In a few minutes seventeen of them were immobilised – mostly with damaged tracks. They were a wonderful target but any anti-tank guns within range had been knocked out, and our field guns were too far back to engage them over open sights with A.P. They shelled them with H.E. but could not shell too heavily for fear of exploding mines and clearing a passage. We engaged them with our Boyes rifles and Brens but could not make any impression. Consequently during them the morning more tanks brought up repair crews who worked on the disabled tanks under cover of fire from others. Some were towed back and before midday all but five had been repaired or removed. These five operated as pillboxes and stood over our position all day sniping whenever we put our heads up.

Apparently the Germans did not expect to find a minefield there for they brought no sappers or infantry with them to clear gaps. When the leading tanks blew up, the rest didn’t try to find a way through near us. Apart from those that stayed to cover the disable ones they sheared off and turned either back towards the perimeter or southwards along the west side of the minefield."
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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#119

Post by Marcus » 11 Apr 2015, 13:11

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Re: Panzer-Regiment 5; Panzers Damaged/Destroyed

#120

Post by MarkN » 12 Jun 2015, 14:12

ClintHardware wrote: Now where is the report of the 15+5 arriving after the 4th June?
2 posts above this question. On my screen, about 6".

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