Supply traffic between Italian and French NA during CRUSADER

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Bronsky
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Re: Supply traffic between Italian and French NA during CRUSADER

#16

Post by Bronsky » 06 Mar 2008, 18:04

Here is a list of Italian ships that loaded French goods in Tunisia. I haven't updated my spreadsheet to include the details on fuel deliveries, so no tankers for the time being.

Lupa (that one made two round trips each with 350,000 liters of wine), Anna Maria (loading 1,500,000 liters of wine in early September '41), Bolzano, Eneo, Aprile, Maggio.
Also the following sailing vessels: San Antonio, Annibal Bosco, Giuseppina, Illivirja, Eugenia.

Spelling mistakes in the documents I got the names from are of course a possibility, as I didn't check the names against known Italian lists.

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Re: Supply traffic between Italian and French NA during CRUSADER

#17

Post by Davide Pastore » 06 Mar 2008, 18:43

Bronsky wrote:Lupa, Anna Maria, Bolzano, Eneo, Aprile, Maggio.
Also the following sailing vessels: San Antonio, Annibal Bosco, Giuseppina, Illivirja, Eugenia.
Spelling mistakes in the documents I got the names from are of course a possibility
I believe the correct spelling for underlined names are:
Bolsena (named in USMM's La difesa del traffico etc.) [#1]
Leneo ( " " )
Sant'Antonio ( " " ) [#2]
Annibale Bosco A. (named in USMM's Navi mercantili perdute)
Illiria (otherwise it makes no sense)

[#1] [#2] But I may be wrong about these two, since both Bolzano & San Antonio were common names, so possibly Bolsena & Sant'Antonio are to be added to the list above.

Note that ships of the latter category ("motovelieri", motor sailers) are not pure sailing vessels, but former fishing trawlers with an auxiliary sail.

Both Aprile and Maggio were former French ships (according to USMM) so possibly taken in late 1942.

A characteristic shared by all the named ships is that they were all fairly small.


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Re: Supply traffic between Italian and French NA during CRUSADER

#18

Post by Bronsky » 06 Mar 2008, 19:14

Davide,

I copied the names from a French source, which lists some of them as "voiliers" i.e. sailships. That may well be a translation of "motorvelieri", or else that's how the French were calling these vessels ("Schooner" in English would lead to the same confusion).

San Antonio was in fact "S. Antonio" so Sant' Antonio is a more likely candidate: I plead guilty for being fluent in Spanish and unconsciously believing that all these Mediterranean Latin languages are the same, this keeps happening whenever I speak Italian and is one of the reasons why I daren't attempt to write it :oops:

On the other hand, there seems to have been two of these. A "sailing vessel" making two trips each with 3,500 tons and a freighter loading what looks like 20,000 tons of cereals in one go (15.12.1941). And "Bolzano" also loaded 22,000 tons on 5.2.1942 so if it looks like Bolsena had the capability to do that then we should look no further as it's unlikely that a "Bolzano" would have slipped under the radar of Italian shipping lists with the ability to carry that much.

Annibal Bosco becoming Annibale looks like the French clerk would have called an Italian Michele "ma chérie" 8-) so that one should probably count as settled as well.

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Re: Supply traffic between Italian and French NA during CRUSADER

#19

Post by Davide Pastore » 06 Mar 2008, 19:36

Bronsky wrote:A "sailing vessel" making two trips each with 3,500 tons
8O
Bronsky wrote:and a freighter loading what looks like 20,000 tons of cereals in one go (15.12.1941) And "Bolzano" also loaded 22,000 tons on 5.2.1942
8O

Are you sure about "tons"?

The former value seems unbelievably high for any ship with some sail onboard belonging to Italy (or to any other nation in WW2, for that). AFAIK all motovelieri were former fishing trawlers.

The latter values seems quite high too. A cargo ship carrying 20-22,000t of payload should be on the same dimensional league with cruisers at least.

According to USMM after war start Italy had only 24 ships larger than 10,000grt (not tons) in the Med and 'all' were passenger liners. I don't know exactly how much payload a cargo ship of say 9,000grt can carry but I doubt it can be twice that figure in tons.

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Re: Supply traffic between Italian and French NA during CRUSADER

#20

Post by Bronsky » 07 Mar 2008, 16:33

Hi Davide,

FWIW there was a French frighter named "San Antonio", of 5,985 GRT, but the document mentions tonnage loaded on "Italian coasters".

I'm drawing this information from two documents. The first, dated 28 June 1942 is a recap of the Trevisani deliveries for the armistice commission. No units are mentioned, here are the figures. Note: ship names in the original spelling even when they're probably wrong as with Annibale Bosco

Sailing vessel S. Antonio:
3.11.41 - 3,500 wheat.
24.12.41 - 3,500 wheat (a different sort)

Sailing vessel Annibal Bosco:
8.11.41 - 2,600 wheat

Sailing vessel Giuseppina:
11.12.41 - 4,000 wheat

S/S S.Antonio:
15.12.41: 10,980 wheat + 10,000 wheat (a different sort)

S/S Bolzano:
5.2.42 - 22,000 wheat

Sailing vessel Illivirja:
12.12.41 - 2,565.60 of barley in Sfax

Sailing vessel Eugenio:
15.12.41 - 3,388.80 of barley in Sfax

S/S Aprile:
20.6.42 - 1,639.20 of pasta

S/S Eneo
25.5.42 - 229.034 of bran

S/S Maggio
11.6.42 - 787.966 of bran

This is all a single table, but as I don't know how to reproduce them in a legible fashion the data is listed instead.
At this stage, my impression was that the amounts had to be in different units. Bran was likely in kilos, barley in quintal / hundred-weight, and the rest was a problem. Kilos were too small, tons looked too large, hundred weight looked about right. A note made me deduce that the pasta figure was hundred-weights and the bran figures were kilos, so 164 tons of pasta and 229 + 788 tons of bran.

Then I found another document dated 28 August which did confirm the earlier two guesses and mentioned that the wheat figures were in tons.

And yes, it does seem like a positively huge amount. I know that cereals are almost perfect cargo in that you can fill the holds of the ship to capacity, but still loading 20,000 tons looks enormous.

My spreadsheet on the French transfers isn't complete, and there's still information that I need to recoup but at first glance I didn't find anything that would allow me to make sense of these figures. So take them for what they're worth, a reiterated official account in serious primary documents, with the understanding that I, too, am amazed at the amounts involved 8-)

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Re: Supply traffic between Italian and French NA during CRUSADER

#21

Post by Davide Pastore » 07 Mar 2008, 17:06

Bronsky wrote:S/S Aprile:
20.6.42 - 1,639.20 of pasta

S/S Maggio
11.6.42 - 787.966 of bran
Let's see: USMM lists an Aprile of 325grt and a Maggio of 331grt. Assuming they are our ships (this Aprile sunk 17 Nov 42 sailing from Tunis to Tripoli, this Maggio sunk at Tripoli 29 Nov 42) they had an encolsed cargo space somewhat smaller (since grt - gross rated tonnage - counts every enclosed space, not just cargo hold. The latter is the net rated tonnage) than 325 x 2.822 = 917.15 cubic meters, and 331 x 2.822 = 934.08 cubic meters.

Assuming that:
- all load was carried in the enclosed cargo spaces (likely)
- such spaces were 100% filled (possibly with bran, difficulty for pasta)
- density of both cargo was similar to water

[a 500g pack of spaghetti (the denser type I found in my kitchen) takes about 440 cubic cm, slightly above water. Other types would be much less denser]

If Maggio carried 788t of bran (against a gross 934t) values might be in tons (although the hull is now nearly submerged!). If they are quintali it seems a bit too low (unless the cargo hold was very little compared to the ship).

If the load of Aprile were tons, they are twice the gross value calculated above, too high (the ship will sink!). If they are quintali they are 1/5 the gross value, a bit too low (but maybe it was not found possible to fill the holds because of pressure upon the lower layer of pasta - less they are reduced to powder)

Unfortunately USMM identification of other units is debatable, since they had common and/or doubtful names.

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Re: Supply traffic between Italian and French NA during CRUSADER

#22

Post by Bronsky » 07 Mar 2008, 17:26

Maggio would definitely be very loaded, though this looks possible. I had made the same calculation myself, though using an average ratio of net tonnage to GRT, yours is more precise.

I don't understand your problem with Aprile. Surely 164 tons of pasta isn't too difficult to carry ? It comes out at half the rated cargo capacity, leaving a margin for packaging (as you mentioned, bulk transport of pasta may not be practicable) and other cargo. The Italians were also buying fresh fruits and vegetables, which would be about the perfect mix with pasta in terms of volume and weight optimization.

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Re: Supply traffic between Italian and French NA during CRUSADER

#23

Post by Bronsky » 11 Mar 2008, 23:45

I think that Andreas is more interested by transfer with an actual military value than with the mundane items we've been discussing lately :wink: but as I found the information on Italian ships interesting as a way to check my own information on shipment, here is another data point this one concerning wine.

The "Lupa" loaded 3,500hl of wine on 15 August and 2 September 1941. In early September, the Anna Maria was loading 15,000hl of the stuff as well. These don't look like unreasonable amounts, but I'm waiting to see if Davide shows e.g. the Anna Maria to have been a rowing boat...

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Re: Supply traffic between Italian and French NA during CRUSADER

#24

Post by kgvm » 17 Jun 2008, 09:50

Franco Bargoni, Tutte le Navi Militari d'Italia 1861 - 1986 doesn't have LENEO, but lists a watertanker LENO (AVISIO-class) of 280 tons, launched 11.10.23 by Cantiere Sant'Elena, Venezia. She only came in service 07.07.25! The ship fell in German hands and was found sunk at La Spezia in 1945. Raised and repaired she served on until being stricken 31.01.1973.

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Re: Supply traffic between Italian and French NA during CRUSADER

#25

Post by kgvm » 17 Jun 2008, 10:07

APRILE was the former French BRESCOU, which was listed 325 GRT and 460 tons deadweight. So even if there was room enough to store more than 900 tons of pasta, grain or whatever, the ship couldn't carry it!
Therefore I assume the load in the French source is given in quintali.

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Re: Supply traffic between Italian and French NA during CRUSADER

#26

Post by Davide Pastore » 29 Jun 2008, 13:54

kgvm wrote:Franco Bargoni, Tutte le Navi Militari d'Italia 1861 - 1986 doesn't have LENEO
This is not surprising, since he was not a military ship :wink:

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Re: Supply traffic between Italian and French NA during CRUSADER

#27

Post by kgvm » 19 Jul 2008, 23:42

Well, there was a LENEO of 345 GRT, built in 1912. But it was a dry cargo ship and requisitioned by the Marina Militare as F. 11 from 13.05.40 until 15.04.43, therefore very probably not the motor tanker mentioned in the first post of this thread.
Looking for a tanker whose name is resembling LENEO I came across the LENO mentioned in my post.
Another possibility might be ENNIO, 464 GRT and built in 1917.

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Re: Supply traffic between Italian and French NA during CRUSADER

#28

Post by Davide Pastore » 20 Jul 2008, 07:44

kgvm wrote:Well, there was a LENEO of 345 GRT, built in 1912. But it was a dry cargo ship and requisitioned by the Marina Militare as F. 11
See above (my post of 6 March 2008 14:32)

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